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I have responded to so many posts like this before but I will, again, repeat myself just for your benefit.
Jesus taught that death is the same as sleep. I don't know about you, but when I am asleep I haven't a clue about what is going on around me. The whole of scripture agrees with Jesus on this. David the psalmist, Solomon the wise man, Isaiah the prophet, and many others, all agreed that in death there is no consciousness of anything that is happening. That being the case, how on earth, or if you like, how in hell can anyone repent of sin when in death they have no idea nor consciousness of sin, the righteousness of Christ, or anything else?
Therefore this life is the only opportunity for anyone to repent.
But where judgment comes in is after death - is it not? ---- and where judgment is, there is consciousness?
I have responded to so many posts like this before but I will, again, repeat myself just for your benefit.
Jesus taught that death is the same as sleep. I don't know about you, but when I am asleep I haven't a clue about what is going on around me. The whole of scripture agrees with Jesus on this. David the psalmist, Solomon the wise man, Isaiah the prophet, and many others, all agreed that in death there is no consciousness of anything that is happening. That being the case, how on earth, or if you like, how in hell can anyone repent of sin when in death they have no idea nor consciousness of sin, the righteousness of Christ, or anything else?
Therefore this life is the only opportunity for anyone to repent.
Brakelite, I believe like you that death is like sleep. Like you say, you haven't a clue about what is going on around you. But there is also a resurrection. I believe all will be resurrected - for that is what Jesus came to do - destroy death, make all alive. Therefore all can come to Christ, be made righteous, at that point.
Therefore this life is not the only opportunity for anyone to repent... does this explain the UR view a bit better? Now granted, not all URs believe that death is like sleep. But the verses you quote above seem to say that. But what you missed is that those who are sleeping will be raised - all will be raised, for Christ makes all alive, but each in their own order...
And besides, it is God who leads and brings people to repentance - it is on His schedule, not ours.
Why didn't you respond to the verses that meerkat posted? (post #1195)
What is your explanation of them?
1Pe 4:5 who will give account to Him having readiness to judge the living and dead.
1Pe 4:6 For to this end also the gospel was preached to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but might live according to God in the Spirit.
I did, but he didn't accept the the explanation given, which is his prerogative.
But where judgment comes in is after death - is it not? ---- and where judgment is, there is consciousness?
The righteous are being judged now, because when Jesus comes, He and the angels need to know who are His and who isn't, that they may receive their reward, for as Jesus said, "Behold I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to give.....". Therefore judgement, as the apostle said, must begin with the house of God, and as Daniel said, judgement is given on behalf of the saints.
For most, this is after death, but there will be as you are aware some who will still be living at the time of the second coming, who do not die but are translated. Judgement for them must be exercised before Jesus comes in order for heaven to ascertain who will be translated. The dead do not need to be conscious for God to decide whether their names are written in the Book of Life, they will be resurrected however to hear the sentence that is pronounced upon them when they are raised at the end of the 1000 years, the resurrection of damnation.
In the meantime, all are dependant upon resurrection for life. And by then it is too late to change your mind because God has already decided which resurrection you will in. If you aint in the first, or you aint translated, you gotr a long sleep ahead of you before you are raised to hear why God has dealt with you the way He has. Either way, you will in the end confess Him as Lord, if only because you agree with His judgement.
Brakelite, I believe like you that death is like sleep. Like you say, you haven't a clue about what is going on around you. But there is also a resurrection. I believe all will be resurrected - for that is what Jesus came to do - destroy death, make all alive. Therefore all can come to Christ, be made righteous, at that point.
Therefore this life is not the only opportunity for anyone to repent... does this explain the UR view a bit better? Now granted, not all URs believe that death is like sleep. But the verses you quote above seem to say that. But what you missed is that those who are sleeping will be raised - all will be raised, for Christ makes all alive, but each in their own order...
And besides, it is God who leads and brings people to repentance - it is on His schedule, not ours.
If you read carefully the passage in Revelation 20 re the second resurrection, you will notice that those who are then raised, (at the end of the 1000 years) find themselves outside the city. There is no hint or suggestion that any of them are invited or allowed inside; in fact, those outside form an army under Satan's leadersahip and actually attempt to take the city for they see it as their only chance of survival. This final act of desperation reveals that their hearts are exactly the same as when they died. Sinful, wilful, rebellious and unrepentant. Fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them all.
If you read carefully the passage in Revelation 20 re the second resurrection, you will notice that those who are then raised, (at the end of the 1000 years) find themselves outside the city. There is no hint or suggestion that any of them are invited or allowed inside; in fact, those outside form an army under Satan's leadersahip and actually attempt to take the city for they see it as their only chance of survival. This final act of desperation reveals that their hearts are exactly the same as when they died. Sinful, wilful, rebellious and unrepentant. Fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them all.
Hi brakelite,
But that is not the end of the story. (Where does fire come down out of heaven and destroy them all?) Regardless, if you read on through the end of Revelations you see that the gates of the city are never closed, and anyone is free to come and take the water of life.
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Now think about this. Just who is the Spirit and the bride speaking to at this point? Surely it is not those inside the city, for they already have the water of life - they are not thirsty. It is those outside of the city who are thirsty - and the Spirit and the bride are calling them to come drink. (BTW who do you think the bride is? It is the true church of Christ - those who are inside the city).
So we see people are still called to even when they are outside the city. Anyone who is thirsty can come and drink, and no one is more thirsty than those who are without Christ.
But Revelations itself isn't even the end of the "story". In 1 Cor 15:22-28, Paul speaks of a time beyond Revelations, when all reign and authority is put down, the last enemy (death) is destroyed, all are made alive, and God is finally all in all. That is everyone.
But that is not the end of the story. (Where does fire come down out of heaven and destroy them all?) Regardless, if you read on through the end of Revelations you see that the gates of the city are never closed, and anyone is free to come and take the water of life.
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Now think about this. Just who is the Spirit and the bride speaking to at this point? Surely it is not those inside the city, for they already have the water of life - they are not thirsty. It is those outside of the city who are thirsty - and the Spirit and the bride are calling them to come drink. (BTW who do you think the bride is? It is the true church of Christ - those who are inside the city).
So we see people are still called to even when they are outside the city. Anyone who is thirsty can come and drink, and no one is more thirsty than those who are without Christ.
But Revelations itself isn't even the end of the "story". In 1 Cor 15:22-28, Paul speaks of a time beyond Revelations, when all reign and authority is put down, the last enemy (death) is destroyed, all are made alive, and God is finally all in all. That is everyone.
I agree with legoman that although the book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 "of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God."
The careful reader will also notice that death is the finalization of John 3:18
So twin, are you saying that you don't believe in eternal torment any more?
I see a God in the Bible Who is going to save the goats too.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS Chapter Eleven
So twin, are you saying that you don't believe in eternal torment any more?
I see a God in the Bible Who is going to save the goats too.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
See what other Greek scholars say about it too. AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS Chapter Eleven
Satan probably knows a thing or two about the Greek also. Why do you presume that every Greek scholar speaks for the truth?
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The apostle Paul saw way beyond John
God's punishment is always for man's cure
