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Indeed, God is a consuming fire, he is like a refiners fire and a fullers soap and he purifies the people through Judgment like silver and Gold ...
And by quoting the verses above i do not see how you answered anyone of my points in my last post to you. Are you trying to be cryptic?
I think you fail to understand the symbolism being employed in scriptures you are quoting and in other scriptures that speak of the lake of fire and of Baptism of fire. The word "basanizo" which is translated as "torment" in and of itself is enough to show the correlation between the symbolism employed here and that which is found in the Hebrew prophets. "Basanizo" is a touch stone, it was used to test the purity of metals during the refining process, and the word literally means to "test" ... And the word "theon" which is translated as sulfur also means to "sanctify or make divine, to consecrate".
It is also important to note that sulfur was used by many ancient cultures, including the Hebrews, to ward against pestilence and as an incense for ritual purification and sanctification.
Much like the sulphur which today can still be extricated form the ruins of Sodom....cleansing the earth of those evil cities...which Jude says is an example to all who refuse to repent today....suffering the destruction of fire. (By the way for all ETs...the "eternal" fire which Jude says destroyed Sodom....is it still burning?????)
[quote=Ilene Wright;19907526]I'm glad you asked!! The non-believer will be given a chance to believe, there is no scripture that says otherwise. Moderator cut: orphanedquote]
The non-believer has his chance now. The just shall live by faith. Anyone 'converting' as you suggest in hell, is not living by faith, therefore cannot be justified.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 07-09-2011 at 11:40 AM..
The non-believer has his chance now. The just shall live by faith. Anyone 'converting' as you suggest in hell, is not living by faith, therefore cannot be justified.
Yet Jesus said to the disciples, "ye of little faith" and Thomas had to touch him (not much faith) so...... What is the difference in believing now and believing when you see the evidence?
Much like the sulphur which today can still be extricated form the ruins of Sodom....cleansing the earth of those evil cities...which Jude says is an example to all who refuse to repent today....suffering the destruction of fire. (By the way for all ETs...the "eternal" fire which Jude says destroyed Sodom....is it still burning?????)
You cant get beyond the death of the flesh can you? You cant see how the physical fires that destroyed those cities is a shadow of the spiritual fire which shall purify the souls of the wicked at the time of Judgment ... And don't forget that Sodom and her sisters will be restored according to prophecy.
You cant get beyond the death of the flesh can you? You cant see how the physical fires that destroyed those cities is a shadow of the spiritual fire which shall purify the souls of the wicked at the time of Judgment ... And don't forget that Sodom and her sisters will be restored according to prophecy.
Here is a short article I wrote for my blog early last year. I think you will get the picture, that while I agree with you in principle, the timing of God's work in us is where we differ.
About 8 years ago in the US were some terrible forest fires, such as has never before been experienced, nor since. Here in NZ we watched for months on the news constant reports of the ever advancing fires that were devastating the forests in, if I remember correctly, over ten states, from Florida to Oregon, and most in between. Firefighters from Australia, Canada and here went to assist in the disaster. When they were finally under control, it was nature and not man that brought the fires to an end.
I well remember a reporter asking a forest service officer the cause of such a devastating fire. “Why so bad?”, she asked. The reply was shocking, but immediately understandable. “Because we were too good at putting out previous fires.”
Do you see the significance of that reply? You see, too much rubbish and dry rotted and waste timber had built up on the forest floor and thus there was a huge amount of fuel for the fire to feed off. Couple that with a particularly dry summer and the result was a disaster. Allowing controlled fires to previously burn off that rubbish would have been far less dangerous, lest costly, and more manageable. Scripture alludes to the child of God as a tree. (See Psalm 1)
I see many trees as a forest, thus the church as a forest. There is rubbish (sin and character flaws) within each believer and within the church that must be allowed to be burnt off. The Holy Spirit is the agent of fire. We are to be tried as gold in the fire that the impurities may be cleansed. Jesus says “Re 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye-salve, that thou mayest see.
We must not act as firefighters. We must allow the fire of the Holy Spirit to do His work. If we resist the Holy Spirit, if we refuse to allow Him to cleanse us or we deny that there is cleansing to be done, then the rubbish will build up to such an extent that there will be only one fire capable of the cleansing. Sadly, if we are not separated from the sin in our lives now, we will be destroyed along with it later.
Fire is a healthy instrument for the forest and the church.. Freeing the forest/church from the rubbish on the floor allows new trees/Christians to germinate and grow without hindrance.
Dead wood/sin within each tree/Christian burnt off allows freedom to grow and bear fruit.
Stronger trees/Christians make for stronger forests/churches.
There are many other parallels and similarities – the point being that we must consider what we are now undergoing and accept it for what it is. A cleansing sanctifying work being accomplished by a holy sovereign gracious God who is making us fit for His kingdom. Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found
You and I would agree Twin that eternal life is a gift granted the believer. Yet here you say it is also given to the non-believer. Tell me, when does that happen?
Maybe I'm not being clear enough .... take two. (plus I'm trying to figure out how this is coming to be mis-understood)
For the unbeliever who dies in unbelief:
Death for that person ^^^ is the end for the time of repentance. The time for repentance is often refered to as the "time of grace".
Instead of being in front of a loving God, that person will face a God whose wrath remains on him\her because they will be seen as unrighteous.
Because of being judged as unrighteous ... the unrighteous are condemned to the same fate that was designed for Satan and his demonic angels.
Hope this clarifies the postion I meant to say.
I know some of you are just as like some of your biblical fathers just hoping to trap me in a slip up or
do to me what you think you're doing to God and using his word against him. I keep this in mind of Jesus' word's when he said:
"if they hate you, remember they hated me first"
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-07-2011 at 10:48 AM..
There is no hate, twin.
No-one hates you.
You are loved.
Though, our beliefs are different and our perspectives are not the same right now. There is no "hate".
peace..
There is no hate, twin.
No-one hates you.
You are loved.
Though, our beliefs are different and our perspectives are not the same right now. There is no "hate".
peace..
Ditto. I know we can all feel that way when other people disagree with our beliefs. ... and we all can get carried away making our cases, to the point of forgetting there's an actual, real live brother or sister on the other end of these posts with feelings.
Maybe I'm not being clear enough .... take two. (plus I'm trying to figure out how this is coming to be mis-understood)
For the unbeliever who dies in unbelief:
Death for that person ^^^ is the end for the time of repentance. The time for repentance is often refered to as the "time of grace".
Instead of being in front of a loving God, that person will face a God whose wrath remains on him\her because they will be seen as unrighteous.
Because of being judged as unrighteous ... the unrighteous are condemned to the same fate that was designed for Satan and his demonic angels.
Hope this clarifies the postion I meant to say.
I know some of you are just as like some of your biblical fathers just hoping to trap me in a slip up or
do to me what you think you're doing to God and using his word against him. I keep this in mind of Jesus' word's when he said:
"if they hate you, remember they hated me first"
twin, 2 questions, not trying to trip you up either....
you said..
Quote:
In stead of being in front of a loving God....
yes or no? Does God still love them?
2nd question..Isn't God responsible for our faith? If you figured this out on your own, would this not give you bragging rights in heaven?
I think or I should say I know you have your mind made up on this and no amount of reasoning will change your mind. Are you at least open minded enough to go to God in prayer about this? Maybe, if your sincere, He'll give you a sign of some sorts. Stranger things have happened.
twin, 2 questions, not trying to trip you up either....
you said..
yes or no? Does God still love them?
2nd question..Isn't God responsible for our faith? If you figured this out on your own, would this not give you bragging rights in heaven?
I think or I should say I know you have your mind made up on this and no amount of reasoning will change your mind. Are you at least open minded enough to go to God in prayer about this? Maybe, if your sincere, He'll give you a sign of some sorts. Stranger things have happened.
Zero, I appreciate that ........ "not trying to trip you up either...."
Question #1 in context as I understand you asking ...
Pertaining to a person who dies as an unbeliever ... Does God still love them ... yes or no?
A: no. REASON:
that person is judged not to be righteous
the unrighteous will not be treated the same as the righteous
those who lived unrighteously will not inhert what the righteous inherits
2nd question..Isn't God responsible for our faith?
A: Yes REASON: we cannot by our own reason or strength come to Jesus or believe in him. But the Holy Spirit calls us by the gospel, enlightening and strengthing our faith.
That is how the truth teaches it ....
God takes the credit and praise for faith, keeping us in the faith, bringing us home to heaven
and for the unbeliever....
people can \ do reject the Holy Spirit who produces faith
people are held responsible for rejecting
God does take away the opportunity to believe as much as he does provides the opportunity
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