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UR is the notion that all people will be saved not matter what belief they hold as the truth while alive. Those who profess it as the truth will almost without exception ignore any verses that speak to the wrath of God and hinge every argument that "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 is meant to understand "all inclusive".
OK . . . TWIN . . . STOP LYING! Your ignorance and refusal to accept what you have repeatedly been told about Christian Universalism is far too consistent to NOT be DELIBERATE LYING!
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It ultimatly challanges Jesus having the authority to damn people forever because of their faithlessness or rejection.
It does NOT challenge Christ's authority to do anything, Twin you liar !! It questions your rejection of His Gospel to embrace the ancient ignorance of ET . . . a completely unloving and purposeless concept . . . in complete contradiction to His example and teachings of our loving God. [/quote]
It ultimatly denies the requirement for belief in Jesus during this lifetime.[/quote]Lie. It redefines belief ON Christ in this life . . . but it does not consider this life the only time it can happen.
Lie. It redefines belief ON Christ in this life . . . but it does not consider this life the only time it can happen.
but wouldn't anybody say, "well, if there is a possibility to accept Christ in another life, then why not just keep doing my thing?" i think I seem to understand where "universalism" is coming from and i don't disagree with the views entirely.... there's just somethings that make me raise my eyebrow a little.
It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. This doesn't work like it does in natural occurrences. The same laws don't apply. The moment you doubt your own belief, you doubt your salvation. You've already doubted it since before you wrote this post. I'm not saying you're not saved... I'm saying that belief will make you question and seek for answers and that simple act of faith will lead you there. As Jesus said, "if you had a single grain of faith, you would move a mountain." Why would you doubt it? There's nothing to lose anyway.
Huh? All I said was that belief doesn't reflect truth. I can believe an untruth as easily as a truth. In both cases the truth is unaffected by my belief, or lack thereof. Therefore, a belief in hell doesn't mean one actually exist anymore than a disbelief of hell means it doesn't.
You are right however, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy to profess belief in a hell.
It shows a DESIRE for one to exist. Anyone who DESIRES their fellow human brothers and sisters to be tortured in fiery agony forever is one I would say is hardly "God-like". IMHO, of course.
Huh? All I said was that belief doesn't reflect truth. I can believe an untruth as easily as a truth. In both cases the truth is unaffected by my belief, or lack thereof.
There is fine line between believing and knowing of course. I don't know that what I believe is the truth.... but I do believe it is. And what I believe is that the Bible tells me that simply because i believe, "it's accredited to me as righteous" as it was for Abraham. I mean it with all sincerity and I don't mean to be some bible thumper in any way.
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Therefore, a belief in hell doesn't mean one actually exist anymore than a disbelief of hell means it doesn't.
Again, I believe in what the Bible says. Can I prove any of these things? Not at all... you're just rationalizing it way too much when it's really not that complicated. You either believe in it or you don't.
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You are right however, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy to profess belief in a hell.
It shows a DESIRE for one to exist. Anyone who DESIRES their fellow human brothers and sisters to be tortured in fiery agony forever is one I would say is hardly "God-like". IMHO, of course.
Did you read all the other posts I wrote? I don't believe in a literal place where people will burn and be tortured. I've explained it time and time again. Hell is death, as MysticPhD mentioned. In fact, the way he/she described it was pretty spot on and better than how I could've phrased it. I just have a hard time believing that there is a second opportunity for salvation. I myself believe in what the bible says.... where death and hell will be casted into the lake of fire and poof! no more. It simply ceases to exist.
I don't desire any of these things on anybody and I find it a bit offensive that you are viewing me in that light because all that I've shared here is completely opposite from that. I've tried to carry on a stimulating conversation and trying to get to the knit and grit of the Bible's ultimate message. I meant no way to start some debate or to offend you or belittle your rationalization. I simply got a lot of time on my hands before I get sleepy and I like to talk about the Bible's interpretations. I find them fascinating.
but wouldn't anybody say, "well, if there is a possibility to accept Christ in another life, then why not just keep doing my thing?" i think I seem to understand where "universalism" is coming from and i don't disagree with the views entirely.... there's just somethings that make me raise my eyebrow a little.
It goes along with what you said before... Self-fulfilled prophecy. Universalists believe themselves to be saved and on equal footing with all mankind in that regard. Thus making them able to have a greater love for themselves, higher value of human life and experience, and a greater ability to love others as they love themselves.
On the otherhand, the ET believers have 2 logical ways to go: 1. They believe they are saved so consequently they look down on those who they deem unsaved. this DECREASES the love they have for their neighbor while feeding their egos.
2. The believer in hell knows they are no different from their neighbor so they don't deserve salvation and are always trying harder to ensure their salvation. Some preach at others constantly, some give to charity or read the bible and pray more.
I was one of the latter thinking Hell-believers. I knew that in order to love myself I had to believe God loved me. But in order for God to love me I had to be perfect and always love him. I felt worse about myself because I could never reach that perfection. This decreased my love for myself and consequently others.
In both cases, the belief in hell as a thing a loving god created to torture his creation is a hinderance to the greatest commandment, love god and others as yourself. UR takes out the fear, doubt, and favoritism. It tells you not to worry. You can freely love yourself and as a result your love for God and others increase.it matters not in what order this occurs.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
There is fine line between believing and knowing of course. I don't know that what I believe is the truth.... but I do believe it is. And what I believe is that the Bible tells me that simply because i believe, "it's accredited to me as righteous" as it was for Abraham. I mean it with all sincerity and I don't mean to be some bible thumper in any way.
If you believe something should you question it? Or do you just assume it's truth because you believe it? If it's accredited to you but not all others then what did you do to get it accredited to you that they didn't do?
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Again, I believe in what the Bible says. Can I prove any of these things? Not at all... you're just rationalizing it way too much when it's really not that complicated. You either believe in it or you don't.
As Mike555 says..Katjonjj does not believe in heaven, hell, Satan, angels, demons, and the bible... So I guess I don't. Still, your belief and my unbelief will never dictate truth. The truth could be something I believe and you don't or something neither of us has thought of. If that is rationalizing, so be it. I tend to think it's called being open-minded.
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Did you read all the other posts I wrote? I don't believe in a literal place where people will burn and be tortured. I've explained it time and time again. Hell is death, as MysticPhD mentioned. In fact, the way he/she described it was pretty spot on and better than how I could've phrased it. I just have a hard time believing that there is a second opportunity for salvation. I myself believe in what the bible says.... where death and hell will be casted into the lake of fire and poof! no more. It simply ceases to exist.
I never meant to imply that you did believe in hell specifically but that is the topic of the thread, right? I personally believe annihilation theory is just as dismal. Why the need create beings predestined to "poof". Is that like natural selection? Only you have to live in the world first as a torture before the "poof?" Seriously though, I was simply discussing the topic and it was not personal. Sorry to offend.
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I don't desire any of these things on anybody and I find it a bit offensive that you are viewing me in that light because all that I've shared here is completely opposite from that. I've tried to carry on a stimulating conversation and trying to get to the knit and grit of the Bible's ultimate message. I meant no way to start some debate or to offend you or belittle your rationalization. I simply got a lot of time on my hands before I get sleepy and I like to talk about the Bible's interpretations. I find them fascinating.
I too love discussing this... See how similar we are?
The good news is that I view you as I view all God's creatures... As myself. So even if you did desire this "poof" or hell, my feelings for you wouldn't change. At least that is the intention. I am never perfect, just ask God... It was for his amusement.
If you believe something should you question it? Or do you just assume it's truth because you believe it? If it's accredited to you but not all others then what did you do to get it accredited to you that they didn't do?
As Mike555 says..Katjonjj does not believe in heaven, hell, Satan, angels, demons, and the bible... So I guess I don't. Still, your belief and my unbelief will never dictate truth. The truth could be something I believe and you don't or something neither of us has thought of. If that is rationalizing, so be it. I tend to think it's called being open-minded.
I never meant to imply that you did believe in hell specifically but that is the topic of the thread, right? I personally believe annihilation theory is just as dismal. Why the need create beings predestined to "poof". Is that like natural selection? Only you have to live in the world first as a torture before the "poof?" Seriously though, I was simply discussing the topic and it was not personal. Sorry to offend.
I too love discussing this... See how similar we are?
The good news is that I view you as I view all God's creatures... As myself. So even if you did desire this "poof" or hell, my feelings for you wouldn't change. At least that is the intention. I am never perfect, just ask God... It was for his amusement.
I quite frankly find your beliefs a bit confusing and a little hard to understand. It seems as though you take certain parts of the Bible that you seem to fit well with. But it is not in my intentions to dispute that. I was speaking to you by taking the entire Bible's context.
Truth of the matter is the bible does say this.... "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20. It doesn't say they would be tortured forever. It simply says they are tossed into the lake of fire. Where does that eternal torment concept come from? Where exactly is the part where God convinces the unbelievers?
If we are talking about the bible after all and what the Bible says about hell then that's what I'd like to discuss. Not in some belief that you found fit for yourself... because I after all don't think like you do. So it's impossible for me to have your precise beliefs.
I believe in the same way as you do that we are all children of God... and all that good stuff. But I also believe in what the Bible says. And the bible does say that the only way we come to God is through believing in Jesus Christ and that's the ultimate message.
Why then did God create humans you ask? Well, that's what I'd like to know too... and that's what my purpose in this life is to find those answers. But that doesn't mean that the "annihilation" is to be disregarded completely. Maybe there's more to it then meets the eye and that is why we have these discussions after all.... to see what we can find.
Tell me though, how did you come about disregarding the angels, demons, hell etc but yet you found ways to believe in God, heaven, etc? Do you believe in eternity? Where do these ideas come from?
If you believe something should you question it? Or do you just assume it's truth because you believe it? If it's accredited to you but not all others then what did you do to get it accredited to you that they didn't do?
There is a huge misunderstanding with people in the church these days. But in the best way that I can put it, in simply studying the scriptures, I believed. It's what happened with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and even Paul.
"“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:1
"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8
No questions asked.... just believe. And in believing in what the Bible says, the bible says, "you are righteous." "The just shall live by faith, and not by sight."
It goes along with what you said before... Self-fulfilled prophecy. Universalists believe themselves to be saved and on equal footing with all mankind in that regard. Thus making them able to have a greater love for themselves, higher value of human life and experience, and a greater ability to love others as they love themselves.
I was speaking within the context of the Scriptures.... I'm not claiming that believing whatever you come up with makes it truth. I am simply saying that what the Bible offers is that if you believe in Jesus Christ you are saved. Hence, the self-fulfilling prophecy if you do not believe.
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On the otherhand, the ET believers have 2 logical ways to go: 1. They believe they are saved so consequently they look down on those who they deem unsaved. this DECREASES the love they have for their neighbor while feeding their egos.
2. The believer in hell knows they are no different from their neighbor so they don't deserve salvation and are always trying harder to ensure their salvation. Some preach at others constantly, some give to charity or read the bible and pray more.
Well, yes I completely disagree with this approach.
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I was one of the latter thinking Hell-believers. I knew that in order to love myself I had to believe God loved me. But in order for God to love me I had to be perfect and always love him. I felt worse about myself because I could never reach that perfection. This decreased my love for myself and consequently others.
The Bible never says you have to be perfect... the bible says you already ARE perfect... you just gotta act upon it, or believe.
"Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."
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In both cases, the belief in hell as a thing a loving god created to torture his creation is a hinderance to the greatest commandment, love god and others as yourself. UR takes out the fear, doubt, and favoritism. It tells you not to worry. You can freely love yourself and as a result your love for God and others increase.it matters not in what order this occurs.
But hell wasn't created by God to torture his creation. Hell/death is that illusion that was placed in our minds wayyy back in the garden of Eden. That's what I am trying to explain to you.
Christ came to say, "wake up, rise from the dead (hell) and i will shine on you."
And no it is not UR that takes out that fear... it is CHRIST who takes out that fear. He's the one who tells you not to worry and to freely love yourself, etc. etc. and etc.
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Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Amen and Amen. And notice in that chapter you quoted from I Corinthians 13 where he says, " For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." Paul is talking about this world as that dark mirror that we're looking through. This life is that illusion I've been making references to and we see glimpses here and there of the reality but death/hell gets in the way of it all... and the only thing that will lead to that reality is faith, hope and love... most of all love.
And again absolutely, when we come to believe in Christ that is all that matters. Right now, without Christ, we are in that illusion... but in Christ, we are in the reality.
Oh really, if there is no such place as hell then why do think Jesus died a horrific death on the cross?
To save us from ourselves. I came that you might have life and life more abundantly. He laid down his life for us as a demonstration of the reality of the love of God towards us. Greater love has no man.
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.John 15:13.
When will religious minded fundamental christianity concede that Jesus Christ said He came that we might have life......that he came to save not to destroy..............and what you are blaming and attributing to God is actually the devil...The devil came to steal kill and destroy life,not Jesus Christ.
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You either believe in it or you don't.
