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Well, it's like I said I think you've been looking at eternal torment from the perspective that God put them there. That's not the case at all.
It is not the perspective that God put them there, migol . . . it is the absurdity that our loving God would ever create such a place in the first place. God IS love and there could NEVER be a need for a place of ET. It serves no loving purpose whatsoever.
I do not understand why you are against UR if you believe this ..... this is exactly what UR is about.......
Well, I've said it before... there are things UR seems to have right... but some things that make me do this
If indeed UR believes that it is in Christ where all men are saved, then I have no contention. But if UR says, all are saved because God wills it... you have to make the distinction how God wills it. And that is in his Son Jesus Christ. This is accomplished when they receive the Word, which is Christ himself.
"The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple."
This is the will of God, that every man be found in Christ. What happens if man is not found in Christ?
It is not the perspective that God put them there, migol . . . it is the absurdity that our loving God would ever create such a place in the first place. God IS love and there could NEVER be a need for a place of ET. It serves no loving purpose whatsoever.
What are you going to do with Revelation 20? Ignore it?
No, that is not what it boils down to. These are different things which you falsely slander others with.
I believe all will be saved through Jesus. In that sense I do believe that everyone will be OK in the end, because all will be converted and willingly come to Christ in peace and humility. But that is not what ILNC said.
I don't believe anything and everything is "ok". There are many things that are wrong in this world that are not OK. I don't believe it is OK to sin as much as you want if you can get away with it. And I certainly don't believe it is OK to falsely slander another person or group just because you disagree with them.
It does boil down to it. Universalism does say it is ok. "It's ok, go ahead and sin. When you die, you will be 'purified', and then enter heaven".
What are you going to do with Revelation 20? Ignore it?
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God.
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24).
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished after all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all?"
This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."
We may put it as follows:
The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.
The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.
That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.
Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death when the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
This doesn't even go against with what I am saying at all. You seem to be missing the point entirely. All men will be made alive in Christ.
Do you actually and honestly not see it? It is in Christ that all men are saved. Men are not saved outside of Christ... they have to be in Christ. Hence all men will (future tense) be made alive in Christ.
Hi Migol,
Please I hope you don't think I'm dense, but I agree with Meerkat2.
What you said above is exactly what UR believes.
All men will be made alive in Christ. Check.
In Christ all men are saved. Check.
Men are not saved outside of Christ. Check.
Hence all men will be made alive in Christ. Check.
Therefore all are saved. That's what UR is. But then I read your other posts and it doesn't sound like you think all are saved. Yet you just said all are saved in Christ.
Still confused by your choice of wording "all are saved".
Quote:
Children are exempt of this. They have no choice in the matter.
OK. I will leave that for a moment. Perhaps its best left for other threads.
I did not read in the bible that all will be saved because God is love. I read a different gospel in which Jesus paid the price and anyone can have salvation in Jesus when they accept this truth.
God in the garden of Eden told Adam and Eve -do not eat of this tree because you will surely die. God is a loving God and he warned them do not eat of the tree.
Satan comes and lies to them and says the opposite of what God warned. Eat of the tree and you surely will not die.
We have a part in this . We accepting Christ. We have a part. Not all are saved because God is Love. Love has boundaries. Do we let anyone do anything and say we love them and give them no boundaries. NO
If that were the case it would be anarchy. God loves me so I can take that new car off the lot.
God loves me so I will take that mansion that has 50 rooms.
We are to be responsible and love has boundaries. Do we throw out the ten commandments because God is love and he wouldn't mind what transgressions we do , because He loves me. NO.
God because of his love gives us instructions how we are to live which will give us peace, wisdom, thankfulness and joy and the Holy Spirit which is our teacher and his word that gives us love and caring and direction and purpose.
It is not the perspective that God put them there, migol . . . it is the absurdity that our loving God would ever create such a place in the first place. God IS love and there could NEVER be a need for a place of ET. It serves no loving purpose whatsoever.
Indeed. Its the very idea that God, who is the very definition of love, could bring someone into existence purposely knowing that person would be tormented forever. Or worse, purposely planning that person would be tormented forever.
It does boil down to it. Universalism does say it is ok. "It's ok, go ahead and sin. When you die, you will be 'purified', and then enter heaven".
No your not getting it.
Finn, try to think outside the box for a second.
What if I said this:
Christianity says its ok to go ahead and do anything you want. "It's ok, go ahead and sin. When you die, it won't matter, Jesus already died for your sins, so you'll go straight to heaven, because you made the right choice to accept Christ."
How would you feel if someone kept saying that is what your belief boils down to, knowing they were misrepresenting the whole thing?
Please I hope you don't think I'm dense, but I agree with Meerkat2.
What you said above is exactly what UR believes.
All men will be made alive in Christ. Check.
In Christ all men are saved. Check.
Men are not saved in Christ. Check.
Hence all men will be made alive in Christ. Check.
Therefore all are saved. That's what UR is. But then I read your other posts and it doesn't sound like you think all are saved. Yet you just said all are saved in Christ.
Still confused by your choice of wording "all are saved".
Wow. This is unbelievable. I've tried every which way to say it. In Christ. IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST.
Is the world IN CHRIST? No. When it says that all men are saved they are saved IN CHRIST. Not outside of Christ.
"but we know that the son of God has come and has given us an understanding to know him that is true, and we are IN HIM THAT IS TRUE... this is the true God and the eternal life."
If you are outside of Christ there is no salvation. If this is what you are saying then forgive me for being so incessant. You keep saying that all men are saved.... yes, but where? In Christ. Every single person has access and God didn't choose some to come to repentance. No, repentance is for everybody. The talk of predestination is about the Church. The Church is who God predestined before the foundations of the Earth. Christ is the head of the body, the Church. This is God's will to put everybody under his feet, under his Son, under the Church.
The world today is still in Adam. But those who are in Christ, are no longer there. Therefore, the entire world today has access to that eternal life all they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ.
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Paul saw way beyond John
Still confused by your choice of wording "all are saved".