Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
OK full stop. Right here is the root cause of our communications problem.
1. In Christ all will be made alive.
AND
2. All in Christ will be made alive.
are two completely different statements with two completely different meanings.
The first statement says everyone will be alive, and they will be in Christ.
The second statement says only those in Christ will be made alive.
Two COMPLETELY different things.
Scripture says the first, but you are interpreting it to be the second meaning.
How is the first statement saying that? That doesn't make sense at all.
In Paris, all will speak french.
vs
All in Paris will speak french.
Sounds the same to me.
But forget that... how is it that the first statement means they will be made alive and then be in Christ? Convince me that that is what it means.
I can just as easily take your first statement and use it to mean the same as the second statement, which simply means, that in Christ all are made alive.
ok, i haven't read through all of this but just for you to be sure, I didn't say that hell in Revelation 20 is referenced to be eternal. I only understand that death and hell will deliver out the dead and then death and hell will be casted into the lake of fire. Afterwards, the souls who were in death and hell and the seas, etc all face judgment from God. and those whose names were not found in the book of Life are casted into the Lake of Fire. That's all I know by memory.
How to interpret that? I don't know.... I have my guesses. But that's just me.
That being said, I simply made reference to Revelation 20 just to make sure where exactly UR is coming from. Because if they simply disregard the book of Revelation completely then I'm just gonna have to simply disregard UR completely too.
Meerkat is a Preterist and doesn't represent all UR's in that sense. I believe that the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled and we have some rough times ahead of us. I used to even believe in a Rapture, but not so much anymore. As far as Revelation 20, the lake of fire is symbolic for God's corrective spiritual "fire" and it does not say that it is eternal.
Meerkat is a Preterist and doesn't represent all UR's in that sense. I believe that the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled and we have some rough times ahead of us. I used to even believe in a Rapture, but not so much anymore. As far as Revelation 20, the lake of fire is symbolic for God's corrective spiritual "fire" and it does not say that it is eternal.
maybe.... maybe not. Or maybe it was symbolic to present an actual destruction.... rather then some corrective process just as Peter states in 2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.a
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.b That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
but i agree, it doesn't say it is eternal. So who is to say that at some point things will certainly come to an end? Don't physicists say that our universe will one day cease to exist?
You believe everyone will be saved no matter what they believe or do while living? Yes? Then everything I said about UR is true.
Yes I believe everyone will be saved. But no, what you have said about UR is not true. Why do you continue these lies and misrepresentation?
This is what you said:
It does boil down to it. Universalism does say it is ok. "It's ok, go ahead and sin. When you die, you will be 'purified', and then enter heaven".
Show me where anyone has said "Its ok, go ahead and sin.", or even implied this? That is a bald face lie. No one has said that. Everyone that I have ever seen post on it from the UR view has always always said that you will suffer the consequences for your sin. No one has said "go ahead and sin."
Let me turn the question around to see if you might understand what you are doing. Do you, or do you not believe, once you have accepted Christ, you will be saved no matter what? Yes, or no?
Wow. This is unbelievable. I've tried every which way to say it. In Christ. IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST. IN CHRIST.
Is the world IN CHRIST? No. When it says that all men are saved they are saved IN CHRIST. Not outside of Christ.
"but we know that the son of God has come and has given us an understanding to know him that is true, and we are IN HIM THAT IS TRUE... this is the true God and the eternal life."
If you are outside of Christ there is no salvation.
Clearly you do not believe Christ lives and abides with us or you would not say that anyone is outside of Christ. The petty idea that a simple intellectual acknowledgment of Christ is the dividing line between Christians is absurd on its face. It is a primitive idea born in ancient ignorance and perpetuated by ignorance for over 2000+ years. We ALL are in Christ because His Holy Spirit is within our consciousness. We either accept or reject His constant guidance. It is that acceptance or rejection that is referred to . . . not some intellectual pronouncement. [/quote]But those who are in Christ, are no longer there. Therefore, the entire world today has access to that eternal life all they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ.[/quote] The intellectual "believe IN" mantra is "easy believism" and reflects an ignorance about what true belief is. It is NOT a choice. We truly "believe ON" what we believe, period. If there is a choice that we can make . . . we don't truly believe any of the alternatives. Test it yourself. Take something you truly "believe ON" with no doubts whatsoever and TRY to choose NOT to believe it. True belief is NOT a choice. Intellectual acceptance is a choice . . and is useless.
I see no difference even if you rearranged the words. In Christ all will be made alive is no different from all in Christ will be made alive. The way I see that Scripture is that the resurrection happens in this life. Just as Paul says it in Colossians, which I've addressed a lot already. "you who were once alienated in your minds by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death to present you holy and unblamable."
It seems as though you're trying hard to make it mean one thing to me, when it does not mean anything else other then exactly what it says, that all men will be saved in Christ. It doesn't mean that all are saved/made alive and that's all, but that all are saved/made alive in Christ. If you catch my drift.
At least that is what I am getting from you, that all are saved without needing Christ. It's subtly referenced that way, that all men are saved. Yes, all men are saved, but only if they are in Christ.
"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature."
I'll look into those links but it seems as though you're still saying the same thing that all men are saved, regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not. None of those scriptures are saying that. But I'll hold my judgments after I've read those links.
All in Christ, meaning all that put on Christ. It is the ones who are in Christ. If one is outside of Christ they are unbelievers. We do know there are those who are unbelievers. They are not in Christ.
Yes I believe everyone will be saved. But no, what you have said about UR is not true. Why do you continue these lies and misrepresentation?
This is what you said: It does boil down to it. Universalism does say it is ok. "It's ok, go ahead and sin. When you die, you will be 'purified', and then enter heaven".
Show me where anyone has said "Its ok, go ahead and sin.", or even implied this? That is a bald face lie. No one has said that. Everyone that I have ever seen post on it from the UR view has always always said that you will suffer the consequences for your sin. No one has said "go ahead and sin."
Let me turn the question around to see if you might understand what you are doing. Do you, or do you not believe, once you have accepted Christ, you will be saved no matter what? Yes, or no?
You keep confirming what I have said, and then you continue by saying it is not true. I am not quoting anyone, I said "that is what it boils down to it". I know you understand what that means?
Clearly you do not believe Christ lives and abides with us or you would not say that anyone is outside of Christ. The petty idea that a simple intellectual acknowledgment of Christ is the dividing line between Christians is absurd on its face. It is a primitive idea born in ancient ignorance and perpetuated by ignorance for over 2000+ years. We ALL are in Christ because His Holy Spirit is within our consciousness. We either accept or reject His constant guidance. It is that acceptance or rejection that is referred to . . . not some intellectual pronouncement.
No, sir. You are wrong.
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
The Holy Spirits comes when we accept that Jesus Christ is Lord. But it doesn't stop there, as Paul says, Col 2:6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
There are those who are in the world and have not come to know Christ. They are not in Christ. Why do you tell me this is not so? It is indeed so.
Quote:
The intellectual "believe IN" mantra is "easy believism" and reflects an ignorance about what true belief is. It is NOT a choice. We truly "believe ON" what we believe, period. If there is a choice that we can make . . . we don't truly believe any of the alternatives. Test it yourself. Take something you truly "believe ON" with no doubts whatsoever and TRY to choose NOT to believe it. True belief is NOT a choice. Intellectual acceptance is a choice . . and is useless.
hmmmm.... strange. There were times I didn't believe in something, but then I believed. Sure, it doesn't work the other way around but it does when you've come to know the truth. That is what I am saying... if people were to open their hearts to the Word of God then the Word of God itself will do the work and they will believe.
Clearly you do not believe Christ lives and abides with us or you would not say that anyone is outside of Christ. The petty idea that a simple intellectual acknowledgment of Christ is the dividing line between Christians is absurd on its face. It is a primitive idea born in ancient ignorance and perpetuated by ignorance for over 2000+ years. We ALL are in Christ because His Holy Spirit is within our consciousness. We either accept or reject His constant guidance. It is that acceptance or rejection that is referred to . . . not some intellectual pronouncement.
But those who are in Christ, are no longer there. Therefore, the entire world today has access to that eternal life all they have to do is believe in Jesus Christ.[/quote] The intellectual "believe IN" mantra is "easy believism" and reflects an ignorance about what true belief is. It is NOT a choice. We truly "believe ON" what we believe, period. If there is a choice that we can make . . . we don't truly believe any of the alternatives. Test it yourself. Take something you truly "believe ON" with no doubts whatsoever and TRY to choose NOT to believe it. True belief is NOT a choice. Intellectual acceptance is a choice . . and is useless.[/quote]
Being in Christ is not an intellectual pronouncement. It is being born of the spirit of God. It is a mystery yet the Holy Spirit will take up residence inside those who call on the name of the Lord and repent of their sins. It is for all who accept Jesus Christ as savior. The Holy Spirit will be the teacher of the word of God to all who are born of the spirit of God on accepting Jesus and his salvation. We are salvaged from the world and make new in spirit and truth following Jesus and the word of God.
You keep confirming what I have said, and then you continue by saying it is not true. I am not quoting anyone, I said "that is what it boils down to it". I know you understand what that means?
Finn, answer my question please.
Do you, or do you not believe, once you have accepted Christ, you will be saved no matter what? Yes, or no?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
