OK, Let's Begin Again With Hell (death penalty, women, church, Revelation)

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by .sparrow.

Nice try? Not sure what you're talking about there.

Anyway...

You don't think life is a gift, then?

To some, yes. To others, heck no. Talking about physical life, that is.

Ever see a starving child, an aborted fetus, a slave, someone abused physically or sexually,,,or a person who froze to death, unloved and lonely on the streets?

You think these people thought life was a gift, when death was probably what they prayed for? Those are who the Kingdom was made for. The fortunate, rich, spoiled, full-of-self pride people are NOT who Jesus is calling forth. They love their lives. And Jesus said he who loves his life,,,will lose it.

[rodgertutt]

IMO Matthew 25:46 is one of the strongest verses in support of UR.

Like I frequently point out, the ET/UR debate nearly always gets bogged down with both sides saying "My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars," and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."

Here are fifteen other translations that translate aionios literally. These fifteen translations are not interpretively translated like the KJV and several other popular Bibles are. The understanding taken from these fifteen transtions is that the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation will enjoy life eonian, while the non-elect will experience kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement. Then, by the time the consummation of the ages of time has been fulfilled, everyone will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will. Both life eonian, and kolasis eonian will have come to an end and eternity will continue with all saved.

1. Scarlett's New Testament written in 1792 has "aeonian punishment" in place to "everlasting punishment."
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life."

2. The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life."

3. Young's Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Professor Young also compiled Young's Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

4. The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

5. The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

6. The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:
"And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages."
Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as "life of the ages," "fire of the ages;" and in Rev. 14:6, "The good news of the ages." It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth's version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

7. The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal."
The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word "forever" which is the same word for "eternal" which says: "Literally, for the age.”

8. Clementson's The New Testament (1938) shows,
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

9. Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life."
It should be noted that the "cutting-off" refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit. The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word "timoria."

10. The Concordant Version (1930):
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

11. The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

12. Joseph Bryant Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life."

13. The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976 has "age-abiding correction" instead of "everlasting punishment."

14. Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010) has "And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

15. Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King's translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.” The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

Also see what other Greek scholars say about it
An Analytical Study of Words
Chapter Eleven

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

IMO Matthew 25:46 is one of the strongest verses in support of UR.

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

Then are you willing to be consistent and say that God's power, and glory is also limited?

Matthew 6:13 ...... Thine is the reign, and the power, and the glory -- to the ages

Galatians 1:5
to whom [is] the glory to the ages of the ages.

Philippians 4:20
and to God, even our Father, [is] the glory -- to the ages of the ages

2 Timothy 4:18
and the Lord shall free me from every evil work, and shall save [me] -- to his heavenly kingdom; to whom [is] the glory to the ages of the ages!

1 Peter 5:11
to Him [is] the glory, and the power -- to the ages and the ages!

Revelation 1:6
... to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages!

Revelation 1:18
and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Then are you willing to be consistent and say that God's power, and glory is also limited?

It's talking about God's eonian power and glory, i.e. His power and glory specifically manifested during the ages of time.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

It's talking about God's eonian power and glory, i.e. His power and glory specifically manifested during the ages of time.

That's Shakespeare-ish of an answer. There is a reason the Bible was written in what would have been considered Wal-Mart level Greek and not hieroglyphics.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

That's Shakespeare-ish of an answer. There is a reason the Bible was written in what would have been considered Wal-Mart level Greek and not hieroglyphics.

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.

Eph 2:7 EONS OF THE EONS plural/plural (translated forever and ever KJV)
(two eons superior to the others, the last two eons, the Kingdom eon and the one beyond)
Rom 16:27 1 Pet 4:11 Rev 4:10 Rev 14:11 Gal 1:5 1 Pet 5:11 Rev 5:13 Rev 15:7 Phil 4:20 Rev 1:6 Rev 7:12 Rev 19:3 1 Tim 1:17 Rev 1:18 Rev 10:6 Rev 20:10 2 Tim 4:18 Rev 4:9 Rev 11:15 Rev 22:5 Heb 13:21
Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal.
Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations

You do realize that each time you do this, only just proves my point:

"we get Greek lessons or insults....." (research Mystic's, Legoman's for example)

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

You do realize that each time you do this, only just proves my point:

"we get Greek lessons or insults....." (research Mystic's, Legoman's for example)

Every student of the subject has an opinion about it.
I agree with this one.
GOD'S PURPOSE FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

[Ilene Wright]

[quote]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Is that an accusation of God or a challenge to God?

Neither.

Moderator cut: orphaned

Jesus' words cuts both ways Ilenen: "all things are possible with God.”

Exactly! All things are possible with God.

Jesus wins along with those of us on the right ... Satan, his followers and the deluded on the lose. Matthew 25:46

Jesus already won!! His victory on the cross is what joins us all to God and Satan has no victory whatsoever. How can you even say that?

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This is true . . . so I would be very certain of the things I accuse God of doing and why . . . 'if I were you. What I believe about God is all love and good. What you believe about God is by all standards of good and evil . . . ugly and evil. So who has the most to worry about in the accusation department?

Amen Mystic....it's not UR that makes God out to be a monster.