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Old 06-10-2011, 03:17 AM
 
Location: New England
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Esau was no different a sinner to the rest of us

God demonstrated HIS OWN LOVE (not fundamental christianity's version of love) towards us, while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
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Old 06-10-2011, 04:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Esau was no different a sinner to the rest of us

God demonstrated HIS OWN LOVE (not fundamental christianity's version of love) towards us, while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Sorry, Esau was not included in the us that God demonstrated His Love unto, Jacob was. Esau was hated as with these Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:25 AM
 
Location: E: (0.00) - S: (-0.97)
229 posts, read 332,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
Sorry, Esau was not included in the us that God demonstrated His Love unto, Jacob was. Esau was hated as with these Ps 5:5

5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
You keep repeating yourself over and over again. So you believe that God hates people, what exactly do you want us to do about it. After all, if a person is hated by your God there isn't much they can do about it anyway, now is there?
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:27 AM
 
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Yes.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
dondi:


Doesn't matter. God hated Esau !
Oh, but it does matter, because I will demonstrate to you that Esau, the individual, was blessed anyway, even if the nation that sprang from him wasn't.

As I said, the struggle between Jacob and Esau pertains to two nations. The Bible is clear on this even before they were born.

"And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." - Genesis 25:23

You may recall that after Jacob tricked Isaac into giving the blessing, Esau was furious and wanted to kill Jacob, but Jacob fled to Laban, where he started a huge family with Leah and Rachel. But the conflict between Jacob and Esau wasn't resolved for many years later.

To make a long story short, Jacob finally decides to go to his brother to make amends (mind you that the elder is supposed to serve the younger). But Jacob learns that Esau is looking for him with 400 men, so Jacob gets scared and divides his family in case Esau decides to wipe his out upon meeting him, sorta hedging his bet. Also, Jacob makes a peace offering in the form of cattle and goats and things to give to Esau and sends his servants to meet him.

But a strange thing happens. Jacob wrestles all night with an 'angel', although it says it's a man. The angel touches Jacob in the hollow of his thigh, crippling him, but Jacob will not let the angel go unless his blesses him. The angel blesses him by changing his name to Israel. Jacob calls the place Peniel, for he saw God face to face.

Now this strange occurance is pecular in that it is happening right in the middle of Jacob's attempt to reconcile with Esau. And I think it has some significance because the story picks right up in that Jacob sees Esau coming with his 400 men. Only now Esau runs to Jacob and instead of killing him, he embraces Jacob, and many tears are wept. Moreover, Esau refuses to receive the gift that Jacob offered, saying "I have enough". But Jacob is insistent in giving to Esau. Watch carefully at what Jacob says in Genesis 33:10-11:

"And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

Take, I pray thee, my blessing that is brought to thee; because God hath dealt graciously with me, and because I have enough. And he urged him, and he took it."

Did you get that? The angel that Jacob wrestled had the face of Esau, but also had the face of God. When Jacob saw his brother Esau, he saw the face of God. That doesn't sound to me like a lost man.

The whole wrestling episode was symbolic of the struggle Jacob had with his brother, Esau. But that Jacob should not view Esau as an enemy, but one who had the face of God. The crippling is a forever reminder of that conflict, now restored in loving reconciliation.

What did Jesus say in Matthew 25:40? "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Well Esau was the least of Jacob's brethren, but Jacob saw Christ in him. And Jacob blessed him as representing Israel, a nation in which all the nations of the world will be blessed.

I believe Esau was saved, even though the nation that came from out of him, that is Edom, was hated by God because of their future iniquity, as Malachi 1:3 tells us, not because God arbitraily chose not to save them, but because of their wickedness. Today, there is no nation of Edom, it has been judged.

Last edited by Dondi64; 06-10-2011 at 05:50 AM..
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:45 AM
 
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dondi:

Quote:
Oh, but it does matter
No it does not. God hated Easu, its as plain as day Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:58 AM
 
16 posts, read 18,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
dondi:



No it does not. God hated Easu, its as plain as day Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
But that passage as I've shown you clearly isn't talking about individuals, but nations. Did you even bother to read my last post

You are confusing the purposes of what God did through Israel as a nation with individual salvation.

Let me ask you a question. Will all of Israel be saved?
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:10 AM
 
Location: New Zealand
11,895 posts, read 3,683,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savedbysovereigngrace View Post
dondi:



No it does not. God hated Easu, its as plain as day Rom 9:13

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Do you hate your mother, father, sister, brother, children --- your own life?

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Gen 29:30 And he went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.
Gen 29:31 And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.


In this passage we see that Rachel was loved more than Leah, Leah was loved, but we also see that Leah was "hated", hated here seems to mean not preferred as much , it can be a comparative term.

Last edited by Meerkat2; 06-10-2011 at 06:27 AM..
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:23 AM
 
672 posts, read 665,105 times
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meer:

Quote:
Do you hate your mother, father, sister, brother, children --- your own life?
This is not about me. This subject matter is that God does not Love all men without exception, and Rom 9:13 and Ps 5:5 makes that clear.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:25 AM
 
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Quote:
But that passage as I've shown you clearly isn't talking about individuals, but nations.
I am sorry, the passage I showed you Rom 9:13 is speaking about individuals, do you deny that The twins were individuals ?
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