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View Poll Results: how do you view this passage?
saves ALL people without exception 14 37.84%
offeres salvation to all 21 56.76%
something else 2 5.41%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-06-2011, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,224,358 times
Reputation: 2295

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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The Bible can't be thought of as incomplete or broken.
The Bible is a delicate balance which can not be compromised.
People who do argue otherwise, are usually holding that position because they do hold positions that are outside the truth.
To rightly divide, separate or discern the truth, you must be able to distinguish between good and evil.

 
Old 06-06-2011, 08:46 PM
 
63,470 posts, read 39,739,901 times
Reputation: 7793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taratova View Post
You cannot separate Jesus and the Word. God created through the Word. The Word will never pass away. The Word is God and the Word is spirit and truth.
The ONLY Word that is God is Jesus Christ. The Bible is NOT God. That is idolatry. The Word is a being . . . NOT a book.
Quote:
It is plain. We believe through the Word. If one is told of the gospel of Jesus it is the Word. If one believes reading the HOLY BIBLE it is the Word.
The words of a believer are passed to others to become the children of God.
It is not through any other means we know Christ. God spoke and there was light. It is not through feelings we find God. Feeling are sensual and change as the direction of the wind. Love is NOT A FEELING.
No one said it is a feeling . . . you lie once again. Do you fundies actually believe that God wants you to lie to defend what you believe? Your teachers have harmed your Soul by teaching you to idolize the Bible as the Word of God . . . instead of Christ. You deny that Jesus LIVES and abides with us and that His Holy Spirit guides us to what God has "written in our hearts" . . . not "written in ink."

1 John 2:27 (King James Version)

27But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him

2 Corinthians 3: 2-3 (King James Version)

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Quote:
IT IS A COMMITMENT FROM THE HEART. Just as God is I AM . A higher than the temporal things of today.
Then why do you ignore what God has "written in our hearts" and follow the "precepts and doctrines of men" "written in ink" instead?
Quote:
If that were so , many would fall away because feelings change. It is a belief system that is grounded in the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
The Word of God is plain.
Romans10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.
But the Word of God is Jesus Christ and He lives and abides with us . . . hear Him and you will know God. How dare you deny Him and replace Him with the Bible as the Word of God. The Bible is NOT the Word of God . . . Christ is!
 
Old 06-06-2011, 11:11 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,434,921 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
twin...you know this all depends on what angle you are giving credence to...the canon is by far a man made compilation...now this doesn't negate that what is in there is God's approved Word, however, there are many more other works apart from it that were considered very holy to the disciples, apostles, pre nicene etc...we can't just landlock ourselves in tradition post apostolic...
Sciotamatics,
I know we disagree. But you know after some 1700 years, if anything would have surfaced that would have had the validated itself as inspired, I'm sure God would have seen to it that those who make such decisions not usurp his will.

I honestly don't understand why it seems that the very people would make claim God has the power to have all saved .... are yet the same people who deny God's power to keep his word inherent and complete.
By denying the accuracy \ completeness of the bible IMO should make one believe that humans are capable of impose their will over God's.
 
Old 06-06-2011, 11:40 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,831 posts, read 11,582,561 times
Reputation: 58253
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Sciotamatics,
I know we disagree. But you know after some 1700 years, if anything would have surfaced that would have had the validated itself as inspired, I'm sure God would have seen to it that those who make such decisions not usurp his will.
Seriously? The least you could do TS is get his name right. Get real.

Quote:
I honestly don't understand why it seems that the very people would make claim God has the power to have all saved .... are yet the same people who deny God's power to keep his word inherent and complete.
By denying the accuracy \ completeness of the bible IMO should make one believe that humans are capable of impose their will over God's.
It's not inherent TS, it's inerrant. Sheesh, where's your head lately? Let me know what you're on, I wanna know.
 
Old 06-07-2011, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 10,480,126 times
Reputation: 1737
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Sciotamatics,
I know we disagree. But you know after some 1700 years, if anything would have surfaced that would have had the validated itself as inspired, I'm sure God would have seen to it that those who make such decisions not usurp his will.

I honestly don't understand why it seems that the very people would make claim God has the power to have all saved .... are yet the same people who deny God's power to keep his word inherent and complete.
By denying the accuracy \ completeness of the bible IMO should make one believe that humans are capable of impose their will over God's.
It's amazing it survived as well as it did.... A miracle IMO but it's still a work humans touched which makes it fallible.

I'm sure the book is not insulted to learn it isn't error free.... God didn't need to make it error free...as long as the meaning or moral of the story is conveyed... Somehow, though, the focus shifted from the moral of the story to the words on the page.
 
Old 06-07-2011, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,189,479 times
Reputation: 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taratova View Post
I can see what your unbeliefs are by your words. Words are very important and many can discern what is said by the words. I see much unbelief of what Christ spoke of on this, such as hell for one, or all are saved without redemption.

Your beliefs say that Jesus is a liar in his word to us. These are false spirits you have accepted as truth regarding the word.
when Jesus said there is a hell and said we had to repent and be born of the spirit and continue in his word and make him our lord and savior.
We must test the spirits to see if they are from God. Satan spoke the word of God to his own benefit.

We speak the word to bring them to Christ through his word of salvation and redemption.

God made it so that we have his written word that many can be brought into the fold from the written word. It is HOLY!
You are mistaken...yet again. My beliefs correspond with my extensive studies of the origins of our bible. We are not in possession of the "original autographs" of scriptures but what we are in possession of are copies, of copies, of copies, of copies, etc...all of which have additions, deletions and variously edited passages. We are all well aware of the FACT that the canon was not put together for a few HUNDRED years and by some pretty corrupt church fathers. Now, ask yourself this, did the people who decided exactly what would be placed in the bible have an agenda??????? Of course they did...and it is well documented.

This is WHY we are given the SPIRIT...so we can KNOW THE TRUTH of the matter without having the actual original autographs. We have the SPIRIT to help us mine through the minutia that is contained in scriptures and to help us find and discern the TRUE SPIRITUAL MESSAGES Jesus attempted to impart to us. What is it about this concept (IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT GUIDES US INTO ALL TRUTH) that you still don't understand????????????
 
Old 06-07-2011, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,980 posts, read 47,311,479 times
Reputation: 14779
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then why do you ignore what God has "written in our hearts" and follow the "precepts and doctrines of men" "written in ink" instead?
.
.
How dare you deny Him and replace Him with the Bible as the Word of God. The Bible is NOT the Word of God . . . Christ is!
Who said anything about ignoring or replacing anything? No one. Except you maybe. You seem to be saying we should ignore the Bible and just go with what is written in people's hearts? How about use both? We have the Holy Spirit in our hearts to teach us understand the scriptures, but if the message in your heart contradicts the teachings of the Bible, the there is a darn good chance that whatever there is written in your heart, was not written there by the Holy Spirit.

False teachers claim that they have truths written in their heart that no one has seen or hearf before. Whenever you hear people make claims like that, take your Bible and start praying.

2 Tim 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
 
Old 06-07-2011, 07:43 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 6,917,441 times
Reputation: 645
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taratova View Post
You cannot separate Jesus and the Word. God created through the Word. The Word will never pass away. The Word is God and the Word is spirit and truth.

It is plain. We believe through the Word. If one is told of the gospel of Jesus it is the Word. If one believes reading the HOLY BIBLE it is the Word.

The words of a believer are passed to others to become the children of God.

It is not through any other means we know Christ. God spoke and there was light.

It is not through feelings we find God. Feeling are sensual and change as the direction of the wind. Love is NOT A FEELING.

IT IS A COMMITMENT FROM THE HEART. Just as God is I AM . A higher than the temporal things of today.

If that were so , many would fall away because feelings change. It is a belief system that is grounded in the Word of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

The Word of God is plain.

Romans10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith comes from hearing the message, and the message that is heard is what Christ spoke.

The written word and the spirit are two different things. The inherant problem with the premise that the written word and Jesus are one in the same is that what the written word says cannot be agreed upon.

However, as much as people disagree and as much as religious people try to manipulate the spirit of Christ with in their box of circumstances and experiences, the spirit is universally known and agreed upon to all be the same thing.

LOVE, there are people who have no good reason to love that do, everyone desires to be loved, everyone in their own capacity pursues love.

I like the bible, but the spirit of God is the final authority, not doctrines crafted from written words.
 
Old 06-07-2011, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 1,113,607 times
Reputation: 298
Not all Christian Universalists, or Christian Restorationists, believe exactly the same way. I would respectfully request that what one says is not assigned to every one of us, other than that we all believe in the ultimate salvation/redemption/restoration of the whole human race to our Creator.

Reverend111 (something like that) follows a different path than most of us who post here. I do not agree with much of what she says but I respect her. Mystic and some others who assert that the Old Testament is a false representation of God has his reasons for believing this way, but I wholeheartedly believe that the Old Testament is an accurate picture of what God wants us to know about who He is.

Steven Jones is an awesome man who has spent time I can't even imagine in studying scripture. He is a confirmed Christian universalist and loves the law of God as expressed in the Old Testament.

God's Kingdom Ministry - Serious Bible Study

The above is a link to a listing of the majority of his writings and, in my estimation, they are awesome. He speaks often regarding the three feasts of Israel, barley, wheat and grape harvests. In my heart I fervently agree that these feasts are an earthly representation of what God plans (planned in His timeframe) for His creation. Mr. Jones has numerous articles and short papers which clearly set out the prophetic meaning of those stories of Israel and what her history and trials mean to us and how it relates to the Father's plan in bringing us all to become the Sons He desires.

Some are not easy to assimilate. I do not agree wtih everything He believes, but I have learned so much from his presentations.

Just as orthodox denominations.....baptists, lutherans, episcopalians, catholics, etc, have differences in small or significant issues, so those of us who hold to the greater hope that ALL people are eventually saved have differing opinions on baptism, the Trinity, preterism/futurism, the rapture, etc.

So PLEASE be aware of this when you respond to specific posts and do NOT assume that because Reverend111 or Mystic say a certain thing, that ALL of us believe that also. I believe the Old Testament and cherish it in my heart. Are some of its teachings difficult to read/hear? yes. But I believe it all happened for a reason and God is fully capable of restoring every one to a renewed life of joy and peace with what happened in this short earthly life....does that mean I don't whine or complain when I face adversity? sigh, Unfortunately not, but He is still working on me.

I have much love and am grateful for all those on here who share my greater hope, I strive not to argue with anyone for it really does little good. I am grateful for the chance to share the things I have learned and believe with all my heart. I do my utmost to not attack anyone personally no matter how offended (though a post might not even have been aimed at me), I might feel. I probably failed at times, I apologize if I have. I understand the Arminian view and the Calvinistic view. I accepted each position for a time. Through much prayer and study, having at one time resisted it with all that was in it, I was hit with a bolt of lightning that Christian Universalism is true and have rejoiced in that assurance ever since. Our Creator is good and His mercy lasts forever. I pray that my believing this does not offend anyone here but if it does, I cannot deny what I believe is the truly GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of Christ.

Peace be to all who post here and may LOVE permeate, fill our posts. Christ said we are to LOVE our enemies. Plus the terms of service here require us to be respectful of our fellow posters. So, I wish blessings upon all of us today.
 
Old 06-07-2011, 10:44 AM
 
63,470 posts, read 39,739,901 times
Reputation: 7793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Who said anything about ignoring or replacing anything? No one. Except you maybe. You seem to be saying we should ignore the Bible and just go with what is written in people's hearts? How about use both? We have the Holy Spirit in our hearts to teach us understand the scriptures, but if the message in your heart contradicts the teachings of the Bible, the there is a darn good chance that whatever there is written in your heart, was not written there by the Holy Spirit.
Clearly you do NOT believe that God has "written in our hearts" and abides with us so that we will not need any teachers to know the TRUTH. You take what men have told you about the Bible and follow those teachers guidance when you MAKE EXCUSES for why what you are told to believe contradicts love and what your HEART knows must be true. You are denying that Christ abides with us and God has written what is there! You have no faith that Jesus lives with us if you believe ANY other Spirit could ever override the Holy Spirit within us.
Quote:
False teachers claim that they have truths written in their heart that no one has seen or hearf before. Whenever you hear people make claims like that, take your Bible and start praying.
False teachers claim that you must make excuses for why you sincerely believe what God is accused of doing or commanding is evil in your heart of hearts. Sincerity in "love of God and each other" will enable you to evaluate ALL and identify evil no matter who is supposed to have done it.
Quote:
2 Tim 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
Scripture was NOT dictated it was inspired and is merely USEFUL for instruction and to give us hope. . . NOT inerrant or infallible . . . and certainly NOT God's Word who is Jesus Christ, period. God's Word was made FLESH . . . NOT BOOK.
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