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EXACTLY. you are a hundred percent correct. These people can't honestly see that there are others who are just innately 'different' from them, so they think that we're 'doing something wrong'. I wish they'd understand that it's no different than saying 'i don't agree with blackness' or the 'black lifestyle' and then being angry with black people for having black skin and calling it a sin.
There's a WORLD of difference between the two. There is no LEGITIMATE proof that people are born gay. There's a bunch of junk science that stereotypically pops up to allegedly prove something in relation to the latest fad/trend. Now being gay is the fad/trend so scientists purport to prove that people are born that way. You aren't born that way. You CHOOSE to live a gay lifestyle. Black people have no choice in being born the color they are born. To compare the gay lifestyle with that is insulting and absurd to say the least.
And for the record, the gay lifestyle is just what the name implies: living as a homosexual person. It isn't rocket science.
There's a WORLD of difference between the two. There is no LEGITIMATE proof that people are born gay. There's a bunch of junk science that stereotypically pops up to allegedly prove something in relation to the latest fad/trend. Now being gay is the fad/trend so scientists purport to prove that people are born that way. You aren't born that way. You CHOOSE to live a gay lifestyle. Black people have no choice in being born the color they are born. To compare the gay lifestyle with that is insulting and absurd to say the least.
And for the record, the gay lifestyle is just what the name implies: living as a homosexual person. It isn't rocket science.
Legitmate proof? you can ask us. I don't think i'd go through the years of trying to accept the FACT that I am gay if could have chosen otherwise. I think gay people are the experts on themselves and are first hand sources of info... so you can ask us. the answer is I DID NOT choose to be gay. Now you know. and being gay is NOT a 'fad' if it is, it's one fad I never wanted.
I have lived as a 'gay person' since the second i was born. I've never NOT existed as a gay person, so you're saying if you're born gay you're somehow living a 'lifestyle'. Is there a straight 'lifestyle' too that you and every other straight person share. If so why did you choose to live the straight lifestyle?
Much of what you say here is either a matter of semantics, or personal justification.
If someone has no choice over thier sexual orientation, irregardless of how you want to qualify the different ones, how can you judge one above another? Is it by legal standards, societal standards (which vary depending upon location), or personal standards?
If they are personal, then who are you to judge those who don't see things the way you want them to?
No apples to oranges here.
Um, it is EXACTLY apples and orangaes.
There are STRAIGHT and GAY people who are BOTH into VOYEURISM. There are both STRAIGHT and GAY people who are into exhibitionism. Those things aren't sexual orientations. They're "festishes'. Fetishes are things that NARROW one's range of sexual arousal.
There are STRAIGHT and GAY people who are BOTH into VOYEURISM. There are both STRAIGHT and GAY people who are into exhibitionism. Those things aren't sexual orientations. They're "festishes'. Fetishes are things that NARROW one's range of sexual arousal.
A sexual orientation is COMPLETELY different.
I'm not limiting this discussion to fetishes, you are.
I'm dealing with all the sexual orientations mentioned in my post.
If people were "born" with them, do you advocate support of them because they had no choice?
Or do you believe some of them are unacceptable? And if so, are they unacceptable because of personal, legal, or social reasons?
You see it is easy to whine about your feelings and how others perceive you, but it is another thing to try and establish the moral credibility to base it on while not being hypocritical.
I wonder too if people can make a conscious choice to "be" gay, or if it can only be achieved through traits of birth?
People are born deaf, but whether they identify-with or join in "the deaf culture" involves some degree of choice.
Having the orientation itself is not a "lifestyle" but how you choose to let that shape your life, in any direction, is a lifestyle choice to some degree. If you choose to not have sex, or even identify as gay, that's a lifestyle choice. If you choose one partner over another that's a lifestyle choice. If you choose to go clubbing or be more of a bookstore/cafe type that's a lifestyle choice. If you choose to wear suits or go casual that's a lifestyle choice.
Same with straights. There's certainly a "straight lifestyle", or more like several "straight lifestyles" and some forms of the "straight lifestyle" are opposed by many Christians. Like swingers, the Playboy mansion, Hustler magazine, Sister-Wives, polyandry, promiscuity in general, sibling-marriage, and so forth.
Some, unintentionally I think, make it sound like being gay somehow eliminates or reduces free-will, which is either an odd take on Calvinism or some kind of biological determinism. In reality how you choose to behave and respond to others is still largely within your control. (If you're a gay man you maybe can't stop erections from happening when seeing certain men in certain situations, but even then what you do about that varies and presumably does even among openly gay guys) Just as it is if you're straight, bi, etc.
On a different matter if you don't believe what orthodox Christians say, or what I say, than don't believe it. I'm not putting a gun to your head, I'm not even saying I know you'll go to Hell. I mean heck I don't know. It's possible, I suppose, that I could go to Hell while you do not. I'm not God, I don't know.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 06-13-2011 at 11:04 PM..
If sexual orientation is "unchosen" as you claim, (and no I'm not going to debate whether it is or not) do you then champion the cause for the following "unchosen" sexual orientations, or just yours?
What if they all use your same reasoning? Should they all be embraced and acceptible too? Or, would you like to qualify certain ones as being appropriate, and others not?
"Pedophilia: “Sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 years or younger)”. The individual with Pedophilia must be age 16 years or older and at least 5 years older than the child. For individuals in late adolescence with Pedophilia, no precise age difference is specified, and clinical judgment must be used; both the sexual maturity of the child and the age difference must be taken into account…Some individuals prefer males, others females, and some are aroused by both males and females.” (pp. 527-528; DSM-IV).
Exhibitionism: “Recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the exposure of one’s genitals to an unsuspecting stranger.” (pp. 525-526; DSM-IV).
Voyeurism: “Achieving sexual excitement” by “peeping”, that is “observing unsuspecting individuals, usually strangers, who are naked, in the process of disrobing, or engaging in sexual activity” (p. 532; DSM-IV).
Bestiality (clinically known as Zoophilia): Zoophilia is sexual attraction to and relationships with animals. Bestiality is defined as “sexual relations between a person and an animal” (p. 532; DSM-IV; Webster’s)
Bisexuality: Sexual desire and interaction with both males and females.
Coprophilia: Sexual arousal associated with feces (p. 532; DSM-IV).
Frotteurism: “Recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving touching and rubbing against a nonconsenting person” (p. 526; DSM-IV).
Fetishism: “Recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the use of nonliving objects (e.g. female undergarments)” (p. 526; DSM-IV).
Transvestic Fetishism: “In a heterosexual male, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving cross-dressing.” In severe cases he may be diagnosed with the additional “With Gender Dysphoria” when he desires “to dress and live permanently as a female and to seek hormonal or surgical reassignment” (p. 530-531; DSM-IV).
Gender Identity Disorder: “A strong and persistent cross-gender identification, which is the desire to be, or insistence that one is, of the other sex,” along with “persistent discomfort about one’s assigned sex or a sense of the inappropriateness in the gender rle of that sex” (p. 532-533; DSM-IV).
Klismaphilia: Sexual arousal and pleasure derived from enemas (p. 532; DSM-IV).
Necrophilia: “An abnormal obsession with death and the dead, especially an erotic attraction to corpses (Webster’s; p. 532, DSM-IV).
Partialism: Sexual arousal obtained through “exclusive focus on part of body” (p. 532; DSM-IV).
Sexual Masochism: “Recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the act (real, no simulated) of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer” (p. 529; DSM-IV).
Sexual Sadism: “Recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving acts (real, not simulated) in which the psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation) of the victim is sexually exciting to the person” (p. 530; DSM-IV).
Telephone Scatologia: Obsession with “obscene phone calls” (p. 532; DSM-IV).
Transgenderism: A person whose gender identity is not clear, and who may take on the sexual identity of either male or female to carry out sexual fantasies or behaviors.
Transsexual: A person who identifies himself as having the identity “of the opposite sex, sometimes so strongly as to undergo surgery and hormone injections to effect a change of sex” (Webster’s).
Transvestite: “A person who derives sexual pleasure from dressing in the clothes of the opposite sex” (Webster’s).
Urophilia: Sexual arousal associated with urine (p.532; DSM-IV)."
With the exception of bisexuality and possibly pedophilia, nothing in your list is an orientation. Most of them are paraphilias. Transgender categories deal with gender identity, not sexual orientation. Most Transgender people are straight.
Please continue to quote mine from the DSM 4 while not understanding a thing about psychology.
People are born deaf, but whether they identify-with or join in "the deaf culture" involves some degree of choice.
Having the orientation itself is not a "lifestyle" but how you choose to let that shape your life, in any direction, is a lifestyle choice to some degree. If you choose to not have sex, or even identify as gay, that's a lifestyle choice. If you choose one partner over another that's a lifestyle choice. If you choose to go clubbing or be more of a bookstore/cafe type that's a lifestyle choice. If you choose to wear suits or go casual that's a lifestyle choice.
Same with straights. There's certainly a "straight lifestyle", or more like several "straight lifestyles" and some forms of the "straight lifestyle" are opposed by many Christians. Like swingers, the Playboy mansion, Hustler magazine, Sister-Wives, polyandry, promiscuity in general, sibling-marriage, and so forth.
Some, unintentionally I think, make it sound like being gay somehow eliminates or reduces free-will, which is either an odd take on Calvinism or some kind of biological determinism. In reality how you choose to behave and respond to others is still largely within your control. (If you're a gay man you maybe can't stop erections from happening when seeing certain men in certain situations, but even then what you do about that varies and presumably does even among openly gay guys) Just as it is if you're straight, bi, etc.
On a different matter if you don't believe what orthodox Christians say, or what I say, than don't believe it. I'm not putting a gun to your head, I'm not even saying I know you'll go to Hell. I mean heck I don't know. It's possible, I suppose, that I could go to Hell while you do not. I'm not God, I don't know.
LOL this post made me laugh, at the last part anyway. Thomas, you sound like me on these touchy matters, it's highly debatable and I have no clue where I stand on it anymore. Still working on that one.
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