The Ancient Ignorant Ancestors Writing the Old Testament (Micah, Torah, purification)

[Mikelee81]

The nail will be in the coffin on this issue as it is a clear heresy. It will be clear that anyone claiming "the ancient ignorant ancestors" wrote the Old Testament making it invalid is simply wrong. It might be their truth, but it's clear it's due to their ignorance as the old testament was directly quoted ~250 times directly with over 600 partial quotations and references in the NT. This won't even include the 300+ old testament messianic prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus in the NT.

Jesus quotes messianic prophecy referring to himself in Isaiah initiating his ministry from the Septuagint (LXX.) If we had errors in the Old Testament, we had the Son of God in the flesh to correct those errors. There were no errors in the Septuagint (LXX) which is what Jesus read from himself written ~300 years before his birth.

Luke 4:18-19

King James Version (KJV)

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Isaiah 61:1-2

1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Notice he didn't say "and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn." He didn't say it because it hasn't been fulfilled yet, but it will be.

Romans 16:18-20King James Version (KJV)

18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Old Testament reference

Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. How much importance did Jesus himself put on the scriptures?

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 11:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

10For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Matthew 21:13
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 7:6
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Mark 9:12
And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

Mark 9:13
But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Luke 2:21-24

King James Version (KJV)

21And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

22And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

23(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord

24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luke 24:46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

John 6:31
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 12:14
And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

The phrase "It is Written" is mentioned 63 times in the New Testament with direct references to the Old Testament. Do you believe Jesus? Which one do you believe? The Jesus that says it is written or the one that doesn't?


Acts 7 - Steven talking to the High Priests summarizes Old Testament events

2And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,

3And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.

4Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

5And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

6And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.

7And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

8And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs.

9And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him,

10And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.

11Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.

12But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first.

13And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh.

14Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.

15So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,

16And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.

17But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,

18Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.

19The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.

20In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months:

21And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.

22And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.

23And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.

24And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:

25For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.

26And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?

27But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?

28Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?

29Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons.

30And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

31When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the LORD came unto him,

32Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

33Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

34I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.

35This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

36He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.

37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

39To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

40Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

41And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

42Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

43Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

44Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

45Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

46Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

47But Solomon built him an house.

48Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

50Hath not my hand made all these things?

51Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

I could go on here. This has already been exposed, but to slam the nail in the coffin I will provide a link which will be undeniable proof. If you deny it, who is being ignorant?

Old Testament Passages in the NT

In response to the coming "veil of ignorance" 2 Corinthians 3:14 quote taken out of context...

Romans 11:25

King James Version (KJV)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

We are in the new covenant dispensation. No one is denying that, but the book is one.

[katjonjj]

The NT writers weren't any less ignorant... Just less superstitious and more informed about the world in which they lived. Using the NT to prove how accurate or intelligent the OT is.... Is....Redundant. IMO

[InsaneInDaMembrane]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

The NT writers weren't any less ignorant... Just less superstitious and more informed about the world in which they lived. Using the NT to prove how accurate or intelligent the OT is.... Is....Redundant. IMO

I like.

[Radrook]

katjonjj

wrote:
.... Using the NT to prove how accurate or intelligent the OT is.... Is....Redundant. IMO

That's tantamount to saying that citing present science to prove past science is redundant. IMHO

[legoman]

Its not that the words in the OT may or may not be invalid, its that the understanding is invalid.
Take a simple statement, suppose someone was inspired to write the following:

God will remove my enemies

What does that mean? It could mean:
1. God is going to send my enemies away to be tortured forever
OR
2. God is going to convert my enemies so they are no longer my enemy

That's just an example.

Regardless, it is clear the NT corrects some of the misunderstanding in the OT. Look at this:

1 Cor 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Those in the OT were under a veil - they did not understand. It took the understanding of Christ, the understanding of what Christ commanded, to take that veil away.

Matt 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

Here we clearly see Jesus is correcting what was taught. Do not hate your enemy, but love your enemy. In so doing, you are truly following God.

When the veil is removed and with the mind of Christ, we can properly discern what the statement "God will remove my enemies" means. And so it goes with much of the Old Testament. We must view the words through the mind of Christ.

Make sense?

[Asheville Native]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

The NT writers weren't any less ignorant... Just less superstitious and more informed about the world in which they lived. Using the NT to prove how accurate or intelligent the OT is.... Is....Redundant. IMO

Then a third edition is needed, exponentially more is known than 2000 - 3000 years ago. But that will never happen, as knowledge is the greatest enemy of superstition and ignorance.

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by legoman

Regardless, it is clear the NT corrects some of the misunderstanding in the OT. Look at this:

1 Cor 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Those in the OT were under a veil - they did not understand. It took the understanding of Christ, the understanding of what Christ commanded, to take that veil away.

Old news and already rebutted 2 Cor 3:13 which is read in the King James Version as..

2 Corinthians 3:13-20

King James Version (KJV)

13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

What's it referring to? Clearly the Jews nowadays that are blinded by only reading the Torah!

16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

When their hears "turn to the Lorn, the vail shall be taken away." Meaning when they do recognize their offense in rejecting their messiah Jesus!It was all due to this event...

Luke 19:35-50

King James Version (KJV)

35And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

36And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.

37And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

38Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

39And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

40And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD

44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

That is the whole pointbehind Jesus saying the following to the Jews for not recognizing him as the messiah.

Veil of blindness will be lifted when they say "blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" aka Jesus recognizing him as their messiah and King.

Luke 13:34-35

King James Version (KJV)

34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

35Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Romans 11:25

King James Version (KJV)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Anyone confused about Israel's destiny, read Romans 9, 10, and 11. God has not rejected them as his people, and they will be re-united again as prophecy is fulfilled.

Matt 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.

Here we clearly see Jesus is correcting what was taught. Do not hate your enemy, but love your enemy. In so doing, you are truly following God.

When the veil is removed and with the mind of Christ, we can properly discern what the statement "God will remove my enemies" means. And so it goes with much of the Old Testament. We must view the words through the mind of Christ. Make sense?

Jesus is simply declaring the new dispensation of the new covenant. No where does he say or even imply the events in the old testament weren't accurate and literal. In fact it is simply the opposite. You're simply cherry picking verses and distorting them to support your view, and I will prove you wrong.

Jesus didn't deny the customs of the Jews were customs of the Old Testament nor did he deny that they were actual events which occurred. In Fact it was just the opposite.

John 7:15-24

King James Version (KJV)
14Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

The Jews were marvelled at how Jesus taught the scriptures. What scriptures did the Jews know and teach? The Old Testament! Jesus was teaching from the Old Testament. Specifically the Septuagint compiled in ~300 BC.

16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jesus did not deny the Old Testament doctrine which is of his Father.

17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

He's referring to the 300+ messianic prophecies he was fulfilling.

18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jesus does not deny Moses existed, that he gave the Jews the law, and that they were to keep the Law.

20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Jesus did not deny Moses gave them the covenant of circumcision that was not given by Moses but God the father. Jesus did not deny the Sabbath day existed and that the Jews were to keep it. He simply stated it was okay to do good on the Sabbath day and that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. (Mark 2:27
KJV)

23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

42Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

As the Old Testament said, the messiah Jesus would come from the lineage of David - an actual King that existed in history. As prophecied in the OT, Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. (fulfilled OT messianic prophecy Micah 5:1-2)

John 8

13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jesus does not deny their written Law which states the testimony of two men is true. In fact he uses their Law to proclaim who he is. He could have told them that they were ignorant and wrong, but he didn't. Why is that do you think? Is it possible you are the one who is being ignorant?

I could go on and on. All of this is what JESUS himself said. I didn't even scrape the surface.

The Old Testament events were actual events with actual people as testimony of the Lord Jesus himself. You you don't believe what Jesus said, why do you call yourself a "Christian?"

[VA palmetto]

The Bible was written as a growing document expressing the understanding that the writers had about God. In the Old Testament, the writers had a fuzzy notion about God, so they included their own human notions in with prophecy. In the new Testament, the writers were given the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which the Old Testament writers didn't have access to. Thus, the New Testament is without theological errors, whereas Moses permitted divorce due to human shortcomings, rather than from God's teaching, as an example. Quoting the Old Testament verses of war against the enemies of the Hebrews is so often done out of context by Christians and antiChristians alike.

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by VA palmetto

The Bible was written as a growing document expressing the understanding that the writers had about God. In the Old Testament, the writers had a fuzzy notion about God, so they included their own human notions in with prophecy. In the new Testament, the writers were given the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which the Old Testament writers didn't have access to. Thus, the New Testament is without theological errors, whereas Moses permitted divorce due to human shortcomings, rather than from God's teaching, as an example. Quoting the Old Testament verses of war against the enemies of the Hebrews is so often done out of context by Christians and antiChristians alike.

Anyone can string a sequence of sentences around spouting out their opinion with no evidence whatsoever to support their claims. While they are entitled to their opinion, I wouldn't call it credible. This thread is obviously intended for those that proclaim themselves to be followers of Christ meaning they profess themselves as believers in what he has said. All nonbelievers might as well not even bother in the discussion lest they be converted.

This is what we're ultimately talking about...

Luke 24:33-47

King James Version (KJV)

33And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43And he took it, and did eat before them.

44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. <<( I don't know how much clearer it can be..)

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, <<(Including the Old Testament..)

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Core doctrines being missed by many on here claiming themselves to be followers of Christ while denying the creator.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by lee9786

Old news and already rebutted 2 Cor 3:13 which is read in the King James Version as..

2 Corinthians 3:13-20

King James Version (KJV)

13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

What's it referring to? Clearly the Jews nowadays that are blinded by only reading the Torah!

16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

When their hears "turn to the Lorn, the vail shall be taken away." Meaning when they do recognize their offense in rejecting their messiah Jesus!It was all due to this event...

Luke 19:35-50

King James Version (KJV)

35And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.

36And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.

37And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

38Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

39And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

40And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD

44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

That is the whole pointbehind Jesus saying the following to the Jews for not recognizing him as the messiah.

Veil of blindness will be lifted when they say "blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" aka Jesus recognizing him as their messiah and King.

Luke 13:34-35

King James Version (KJV)

34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

35Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Romans 11:25

King James Version (KJV)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Anyone confused about Israel's destiny, read Romans 9, 10, and 11. God has not rejected them as his people, and they will be re-united again as prophecy is fulfilled.


Jesus is simply declaring the new dispensation of the new covenant. No where does he say or even imply the events in the old testament weren't accurate and literal. In fact it is simply the opposite. You're simply cherry picking verses and distorting them to support your view, and I will prove you wrong.

Jesus didn't deny the customs of the Jews were customs of the Old Testament nor did he deny that they were actual events which occurred. In Fact it was just the opposite.

John 7:15-24

King James Version (KJV)
14Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

The Jews were marvelled at how Jesus taught the scriptures. What scriptures did the Jews know and teach? The Old Testament! Jesus was teaching from the Old Testament. Specifically the Septuagint compiled in ~300 BC.

16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Jesus did not deny the Old Testament doctrine which is of his Father.

17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

He's referring to the 300+ messianic prophecies he was fulfilling.

18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Jesus does not deny Moses existed, that he gave the Jews the law, and that they were to keep the Law.

20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Jesus did not deny Moses gave them the covenant of circumcision that was not given by Moses but God the father. Jesus did not deny the Sabbath day existed and that the Jews were to keep it. He simply stated it was okay to do good on the Sabbath day and that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. (Mark 2:27
KJV)

23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

42Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

As the Old Testament said, the messiah Jesus would come from the lineage of David - an actual King that existed in history. As prophecied in the OT, Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. (fulfilled OT messianic prophecy Micah 5:1-2)

John 8

13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

16And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

18I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jesus does not deny their written Law which states the testimony of two men is true. In fact he uses their Law to proclaim who he is. He could have told them that they were ignorant and wrong, but he didn't. Why is that do you think? Is it possible you are the one who is being ignorant?

I could go on and on. All of this is what JESUS himself said. I didn't even scrape the surface.

The Old Testament events were actual events with actual people as testimony of the Lord Jesus himself. You you don't believe what Jesus said, why do you call yourself a "Christian?"

That's quite a mouthful there Lee and then you conclude with "you don't believe what Jesus said, why do you call yourself a Christian?"

Hmmm...

I never said I don't believe Jesus and I never said I don't believe the old testament.

What I said was that those in old testament times may not have even understood everything they were inspired to write.

This was exemplified by Christ Himself who preached to love our enemies, as opposed to what some said in the OT: hate your enemies.