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Let's take for example...the sun will not give its light, the moon turns to blood etc....how do I define this passage in Matthew 24/Mark 13 as allegorical? Do I need to step outside of the Bible in its culture to prove this? I can, but I don't need to. Read carefully, we are going to backtrack a few hundred years during the time of Isaiah....
Isa 13:10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
This above is a prophecy of Babylon and its fall. The Lord is judging them. This type of language, is used in direct referrence to this very theme. It has nothing to do with an physical "cosmological" disturbance, but it is a rendering of God's judgement on said nation. By this prophecy, when Babylon fell a few hundred years later, Israelites looked back on the prophecy and saw that it was God who willed this to happen.
When Christ said these things to His disciples, they were very familiar with this language, as it is everywhere throughout the Old Testament. They knew that by His direct referrence to not one stone on another Matt 24:2 just minutes before, they knew that with this type of language Christ used, along with what he had conveyed, judgement on that specific nation, Israel, in the latter days, were soon, at hand, and about to come.
Matt. 24: 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Do you believe that the mourning of all of the people of the earth and the second coming of the Son of Man Jesus has already happened in the 70AD (or thereabouts?)
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14
Was the Gospel preached to the entire world in the first century and if it was, did 'the end' come? I do note the writer carefully mentions that the Disciples asked about the end of 'the age' and not the end of the world, but I am not so sure the Disciples were that educated to be concerned about an epoch (age) as they were about the end of the world itself.
When did the above happen in the first century?
Good questions. But also curiously
Matt. 24:20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
But winter flight is a problem to the one who does not have a heated vehicle.
And Sabbath is no longer a problem.
Perhaps the next verse reveals the true end times
Matt. 24: 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now(!!!)—and never to be equaled again.
Did you see my OP? Jesus is quoted by Mark as saying to the 11.. 'whenYOU see these signs happening.."
Alternate interpretations became required after that generation passed away.
But this treatment of prophesy is no different for other religions whose prophets prophesied something that did not happen.
And then the questions begin... was the prophesy literal or figurative? Did he really mean what he said?
But if you are coming up with alternative interpretations, does this not mean that you are not really judging the prophet based on prophesy but are deciding to follow the prophet regardless of what their prophesy says and whether it's fulfilled?
Like I said, He was talking about the generation who sees those things happen. It is not an alternate interpretation.
Mark 13: 20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. 24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Notice, Jesus is telling these disciples not about IF these things will happen, but WHEN they will happen and is also telling them that ALL of these things will take place in their generation.
So, how come Christianity did not die in 2nd century AD?
The Christianity of today in no way resembles that of the 2nd century...so in effect...it did die.
Matt. 24: 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Do you believe that the mourning of all of the people of the earth and the second coming of the Son of Man Jesus has already happened in the 70AD (or thereabouts?)
BigV,
This is a ref of Zechariah 12:10-14 which John reiterates as fulfilled when Christ died on the cross in John 19:37. This again is referred to in Revelation 1:7 when John says:
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen
So to answer your question....yes. The proper translation of "earth" is "land" and is a direct reference to the "tribes of the land" i.e. tribes of Israel. The term ὀφθαλμὸς - shall see - is not something anyone would eyeball, as in a materialistic manifestation, but rather is interpreted as "knowing".
Let me explain briefly in common language you and I use.
You tell me something that I didn't understand before.
I say " I see what you mean."
This is what is being conveyed.
Moving to the "clouds" symbolism....Jesus told Caiaphas, "You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power." He said to His disciples, "They would see the sign that the son of man was in heaven." He told Caiaphas, "You will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven." He told His disciples, "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." It is obviously the same event in both passages. Notice Caiaphas' response to Jesus' statement:
Matthew 26:65 (NKJV) Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!
What did Jesus say that was blasphemy? Caiaphas understood that Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah. In order to understand what Jesus is saying, we need to understand the idea that is behind "coming in the clouds."
God's "coming on the clouds of heaven" is a symbolic way of speaking of His presence, judgement and salvation. All through the Old Testament God was coming "on clouds," in salvation of His people and judgement of His enemies.
Exodus 34:5 (NKJV) Now the LORD descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Salvation: In Psalm 18, David speaks of his deliverance from Saul using apocalyptic language.
Psalms 18:9-12 (NKJV) He bowed the heavens also, and came down With darkness under His feet. 10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. 11 He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters And thick clouds of the skies. 12 From the brightness before Him, His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.
Judgement: The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with His judgement of his enemies:
Isaiah 19:1 (NKJV) The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, And will come into Egypt; The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
We know from Isaiah 20 that God used the Assyrians as instruments of His wrath on Egypt, yet it says, "The LORD rides on a swift cloud..., Egypt will totter at His presence." God came to Egypt in judgement. His presence was made known in judgement. But it was the Assyrians who were literally present.
The above are references to the cloud symbolism that should be noted, there are more, but I think this is sufficient to get the point across. Like I said earlier in the thread, during this time, in the ancient world, symbolism was HEAVILY used to characterize different situations and events that occurred in reality. It was how these cultures got their point across.
When the temple fell in 70 AD, those who killed Christ, that is the apostate Israeli polity, "knew" it was because of their actions toward Jesus, that brought on this judgement.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. - Matthew 24:14
Was the Gospel preached to the entire world in the first century and if it was, did 'the end' come? I do note the writer carefully mentions that the Disciples asked about the end of 'the age' and not the end of the world, but I am not so sure the Disciples were that educated to be concerned about an epoch (age) as they were about the end of the world itself.
Yes! Shortly after Paul had said this the war in 66 AD arrived.
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Preached - κηρυχθέντος - aorist - past tense
Heard - ἠκούσατε- aorist - past tense
Your last statement I explained in the previous post.
Well, why is Jesus not considered a false prophet then?
Because everything he attempted to impart to us (all of the SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS...not the physical/literal concepts of current Christianity) had been changed and modified to fit the agenda of those who changed and modified it...this was also accomplished through violence and execution. This is history...study it.
Christianity did not die in the 2nd century because of the baptism of Holy Spirit who brought a witness of Jesus Christ in the earth , and more Christian grew and nothing could stop the plan of Jesus growth not even the Romans who tried to close Jesus down .....It wasn`t until 666 A.D. that the Church started losing Ground in the Middle east with the rise of Islam, But Jesus took Rome for Christ in those days without any lost blood war except Jesus Blood ..... See Christianity is mainly not religion but a live witness of Jesus Spirit who lives on Christians Bodies , who must resist sin because Jesus Spirit is a Spirit of a Holy Righteous God ....
Because everything he attempted to impart to us (all of the SPIRITUAL CONCEPTS...not the physical/literal concepts of current Christianity) had been changed and modified to fit the agenda of those who changed and modified it...this was also accomplished through violence and execution. This is history...study it.
Did you know that apostolic Christianity had spread to Britain by the end of the 1st century? That by the 5th century bishops were being appointed to oversee Christian churches as far east as Japan, Vietnam, and vast numbers in China, as well as Persia, India, Afghanistan , and Mongolia?
Venture south in the 2nd century and you would have found a thriving church in Ethiopia and Egypt. All these churches had the scriptures, all practised more or less the same primitive apostolic Christianity of the 1st century. All before the apostate Roman church had sent out one missionary.
Not to forget those stalwarts of faith that for centuries survived the papal persecutions such as the Albigenses, the Waldenses, and many others who were scattered throughout Europe doing all they could to stave off apostasy and heresy that was dominating the ecclesiastical monstrosity that was developing in Rome.
Christianity did not die in the 2nd century, nor at any time after that.
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