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Old 06-25-2011, 01:01 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why are the commandment breakers and the commandment practicers in the same kingdom?

Matthew 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Why is the least in the kingdom (Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same) greater than JTB?
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Old 06-25-2011, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Omaha, NE
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A lot of times it helps to view verses in context to understand what they are trying to communicate. Individual verses are just snapshots of a larger picture. I don't know if this will help, but here are a couple snippets from Paul Kretzmann's Popular Commentary (I bolded the verses to separate them from the commentary):

MATTHEW CHAPTER 5

Quote:
In the mean time all men should know: V. 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Here is a conclusion. Since the above is Christ's view, He is bound to take His stand with reference to the transgressors of that rule. He that dissolves, abrogates, sets aside even those commandments that seem small and of little import, he that disregards as much as one of the little horns or hooks, whose presence or absence may, indeed, change the meaning of an entire passage, falls under Christ's sentence of condemnation, he is declared to be the least in the kingdom of heaven. The sincerity of his convictions will not be accepted as an excuse, and his fault will only be made greater by his extending the false opinion he holds by means of teaching. He shall be called the least, he shall be rejected in this kingdom, he shall be excluded from its glories. On the other hand, he that teaches in entire conformity with the Old Testament, that preaches not only the Gospel, but the Law in its great purpose of preparing the hearts, that keeps silence with regard to nothing, that does not add thereto nor take therefrom, he shall have a great name in the kingdom of heaven, he shall receive the reward of faithfulness. For this teaching is essential in educating men as to the true righteousness of life, in holding up before the Christians a proper rule of conduct.
MATTHEW CHAPTER 11

Quote:
The application of these truths: V. 11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist; notwithstanding, he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. In solemn terms Christ gives His own valuation of the worth of John the Baptist. Not only has no greater prophet than John arisen, but among all mankind there is none that approaches him in capacity to render effective service to the kingdom of God. And yet, "he who is comparatively less in the kingdom of heaven, according to the standard of that kingdom, or who occupies a lower place in it, is greater than John, in respect of the development of his faith and spiritual life." 98) Every lowly disciple of the new dispensation is greater than John the Baptist. For John did not see the day of Christ; his career came to an end before Jesus entered into His glory. And so the children of the present covenant that have the entire fulfillment of the prophecy, Christ crucified and resurrected, before their eyes, have a still more perfect revelation and a more powerful light than John.

Last edited by jessep28; 06-25-2011 at 03:24 AM..
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 9,199,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessep28 View Post
A lot of times it helps to view verses in context to understand what they are trying to communicate. Individual verses are just snapshots of a larger picture. I don't know if this will help, but here are a couple snippets from Paul Kretzmann's Popular Commentary (I bolded the verses to separate them from the commentary):

MATTHEW CHAPTER 5



MATTHEW CHAPTER 11
Thank you for the response, however, it seems the commentary doesn't answer the first question.

It assumes that the kingdom dwellers are all believers. I don't see that. Why would a believer teach others to break commands?
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Old 06-25-2011, 03:48 PM
 
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The both of these people who break the commandment and teach others to break them and people who obey the commandments are in the same Kingdom of God because both must have gave their lives in covenant with the Lord and those who broke away from the commandments are still in the Kingdom of God because is Jesus is gracious to wait until believers endure to the end of their days and repent and turn from all unrighteousness...... Even told believer to keep the disobedient believer in the flock and at the harvest Jesus said He will send His angels to gather up the weeds and take them out and burn them, so leave them in ..... See there is No condemnation out of the Holy Spirit , but if is unbearable for Holy Spirit to abide in sin then He will let the believer fall into curses and demons will challenge the believer until he turns back to Christ authority...... When a new believers come to Christ he is to resist sin and learn to resist sin and Holy spirit will teach him of His authority , he does not have to come to Christ sinless, there is no condemnation for sin ............. For Matthew 11:11 ... At the time of Jesus statement there were nobody in Heaven apart from the Lord and his Holy Angels , as the promise was not fulfilled .......
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:47 AM
 
Location: Tyler, Texas
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I can help a little but I don't know if I can answer the question. Oftentimes, what is happening when you have two verses such as these that appear to be in contradiction, is that the English isn't telling the full story. To get the full story, or at least a little bit more, we have to go to the Greek to see what the texts actually state, not what the English translations of them state. In this case, we have "least" appear in two different passages, and taken on face value imply a contradiction. But when we look up the Greek in these passages, we see that Matthew 5 uses Strong's 1646 while Matthew 11 uses Strong's 3398. That by itself can't render a final verdict, there is still a lot of work to be done. Indeed Strong's 3398 is the superlatiive of 1646. They come from the same basic root. What we need to do is determine why Jesus chose to use these two different words in the places he used them.

There is an analogy from set theory that I think is interesting. Zorn's lemma states that every partially ordered set that is bounded above has a maximal element. Briefly put, a set can have many upper bounds but only one maximal element or greatest upper bound. So least in the kingdom of heaven on one hand may be referring to a different set than least on the other hand.

My favored way of interpreting it is to say that from the language of Matt 11, he's not saying the least in heaven at that time that John is in it. He is saying the least now. The only ones who could have been members at that time before Christ's death would be the angels, who are of a different quality and stature entirely from man. Those who enter (future tense) who fit the qualities denoted in the first half of the statement will be called great in the kingdom, but they are of a different set and so are still not greater than even the least in the kingdom of heaven (future tense).

Additionally, it's said that we take on the angelic state in heaven, that is we are shed of the corrupt bodies and sin nature that plague us here on earth, so that we do take our place next to angels, as it were, so that it is suitable for us to make this comparison.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:56 AM
 
1,506 posts, read 911,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why are the commandment breakers and the commandment practicers in the same kingdom?

Matthew 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Why is the least in the kingdom (Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same) greater than JTB?
Because JTB was in his prison cell (his body). To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The spirit without the flesh cannot sin. Think of Genie finally getting out of the bottle. Who is greater, the one trapped or not?
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why are the commandment breakers and the commandment practicers in the same kingdom?

Matthew 11:11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Why is the least in the kingdom (Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same) greater than JTB?
How could they not be?

The least is the outer court, then there is the Holy place, and then there is the Holy of Holies which is the greatest in the kingdom, the narrow way. When they say,'' No thief or murderer or the sexual immoral can enter the kingdom of heaven,'' it is specifically speaking of the higher Zoe kingdom, it doesn't mean they go to some hell, it means that go to the least in the kingdom, the outer court.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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It's just unredacted Ebkionite propaganda. The whole point of the "New Covenant" is that it is not ABOUT commandments, but about commitment to the concern for others that should animate sometimes poorly articulated "rules." Love fulfills the PURPOSE of or the intent of the commandments, even when they are as poorly expressed as "thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk."
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Booth Texas
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Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
It's just unredacted Ebkionite propaganda. The whole point of the "New Covenant" is that it is not ABOUT commandments, but about commitment to the concern for others that should animate sometimes poorly articulated "rules." Love fulfills the PURPOSE of or the intent of the commandments, even when they are as poorly expressed as "thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk."
Nate, that is just ridiculous, the New Covenant is only offered to Jews of Judah and Gentiles who convert under the promise of the lost ten tribes, and they have to come back with respect of the Torah.

You are talking about a covenant specifically made for Ephraim and Judah alone, and you are neither of these and what you say proves it.

We can CLEARLY see the New Covenant fulfilled and realised in Ezekiel 37, in Jeremiah 31, and there is NO DISRESPECTFUL GENTILES IN THE COVENANT.

We are CLEARLY shown who Ephraim and Judah are by THEIR LOVE OF THE LAWS OF MOSES.

You are sitting here talking about a covenant in the Old Testament, and you don't believe in the Old Testament to begin with, but then you take a covenant spoken to a people you are not associated with as if you were amongst Judah and Ephraim to which the covenant pertains.

The New covenant is God writing HIS LAWS OF MOSES ON THE HEARTS OF THE LOST LAWLESS SHEEP OF ISRAEL.

Notice that he doesn't write his laws of Moses in the hearts of Judah, he writes his laws in the hearts of THE LAWLESS.

Now you are here talking about a make believe covenant where the law doesn't matter, when IN FACT, it is the acceptance of the laws that graft and adopt a Gentile into being JUST LIKE A JEW, BEING A CO HEIR IN THE SAME RELIGION.

God promises in the New covenant to write HIS LAWS ON THE HEARTS OF THE LAWLESS, AND THAT IS THE COVENANT.

But Nate will proclaim the OPPOSITE.

Neither is he Ephraim or Judah to even speak to the covenant, he gets it completely wrong and completely opposite of what the written covenant says, and it is wtitten for all people to see.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:04 PM
 
47,512 posts, read 30,055,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
It's just unredacted Ebkionite propaganda. The whole point of the "New Covenant" is that it is not ABOUT commandments, but about commitment to the concern for others that should animate sometimes poorly articulated "rules." Love fulfills the PURPOSE of or the intent of the commandments, even when they are as poorly expressed as "thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Nate, that is just ridiculous, the New Covenant is only offered to Jews of Judah and Gentiles who convert under the promise of the lost ten tribes, and they have to come back with respect of the Torah.
Okay, we will call those under YOUR New Covenant - Hannibalism, NOT Christianity. The New Covenant instituted by Christ's scourging and Crucifixion is the Christian New Covenant.
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