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NOTE: It is NOT my intention to start another debate in here on UR vs ET.
But for those who lurk here and are trying to make up their minds on which is the true theology, I can do no greater a service than direct them to the website below which, of all the material I have read here on the Internet on both UR and ET, is absolutely the most comprehensive, overarching debate between two individuals, one from each camp, on what is undoubtedly the thorniest issue in the Bible, bar none. It is conducted just like a live debate would be. Each man gives an opening statement of their belief and the Biblical foundation for it and then each man addresses each others questions, objections, etc.
I will say that I had temporarily veered off UR and gone back to annihilationism for a short period but reading this debate has renewed my faith in God's absolute determination to save every last human. I will say, and I hope I am non-partial when I say this, that the UR proponent totally blows the ET'er out of the water and you will see why when you read Logos_x's (aka Stephen) posts #3, 8 & especially 12. I am still reading the debate but I can say that up to this point it is absolutely riveting, glue-you-to-your-seat stuff. Just a preview---logos_x asks Kevin (ET proponent) 24 questions which no ET'er could answer without admitting that their doctrine is fatally flawed. Here are 12 of them:
Quote:
Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.
But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.
Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.
But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.
Do they believe that Jesus came to destroy all the works of the Devil? Yes
Do they believe He will? No.
Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.
But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.
Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.
But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are mortal and not immortal? No.
Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.
But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.
Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.
But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.
BIG ONE!
Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.
But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.
Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.
But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.
Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:8)? Yes.
But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.
Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.
But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.
Do they believe that Jesus' death took all sin away? Yes
Do they believe all sin is taken away? No.
I hope many of you get as much pleasure (and learning) out of reading this debate as I did. be warned: it is long, but well worth the effort. Enjoy!
The Absolutely BEST Debate on Universalism vs ET I Have Ever Read
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
NOTE: It is NOT my intention to start another debate in here on UR vs ET.
But for those who lurk here and are trying to make up their minds on which is the true theology, I can do no greater a service than direct them to the website below which, of all the material I have read here on the Internet on both UR and ET, is absolutely the most comprehensive, overarching debate between two individuals, one from each camp, on what is undoubtedly the thorniest issue in the Bible, bar none. It is conducted just like a live debate would be. Each man gives an opening statement of their belief and the Biblical foundation for it and then each man addresses each others questions, objections, etc.
I will say that I had temporarily veered off UR and gone back to annihilationism for a short period but reading this debate has renewed my faith in God's absolute determination to save every last human. I will say, and I hope I am non-partial when I say this, that the UR proponent totally blows the ET'er out of the water and you will see why when you read Logos_x's (aka Stephen) posts #3, 8 & especially 12. I am still reading the debate but I can say that up to this point it is absolutely riveting, glue-you-to-your-seat stuff. Just a preview---logos_x asks Kevin (ET proponent) 24 questions which no ET'er could answer without admitting that their doctrine is fatally flawed. Here are 12 of them:
I hope many of you get as much pleasure (and learning) out of reading this debate as I did. be warned: it is long, but well worth the effort. Enjoy!
That's something I'll have to read a little at a time but it looks very interesting, thanks Thrillobyte.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
Yes thanks! Im gonna send it to a few friends!
My pleasure, Ilene. And yes, kat, please send it to as many people as you think would be interested. I think we have to take the initiative to spread the world that God does NOT intend to send 99% of His children to eternal hellfire. I use the number 99% generously because when I look around at people coming and going in everyday life, it is impossible for me to believe that even a minute fraction of them are living the kind of life that Jesus commands us to live. Were all these people held to the rigid bar God has set for us to leap over, none would make it and barely .001% could honestly claim to be trusting wholeheartedly in Jesus for their salvation. Is it God's intention to send 99.999% of humanity to the lake of fire? When Paul boldly claims that the last enemy to be defeated is death (obviously the second death), how can this possibly have one scintilla of truth if hundreds are billions of people are suffering the second death (being tortured in the lake of fire) for all eternity? Why this simple concept has never dawned on ET'ers is beyond my comprehension.
I suspect that ET'er don't realize when you take in the whole of the gospel that God sets an almost impossible standard for us to live up to even though He commands us to, as Paul is trying to explain when he says "He has bound all over to disobedience that He might have mercy on all". It is not only God's pleasure to show mercy to His children, but His absolute Will that He do so in order to make known to us the boundless extent of His love toward us.
I will add that I am the kind of person who comes away from a website with more questions than when I went in. Logos_x (pro-universalism) is the closest I've ever come to someone who asks the same kinds of logical questions about ET that I would and then pretty much explains every one of them with concise, easy-to-understand responses, while asking questions of his opponent that you can clearly see his opponent shying away from trying to answer, pretty much just sticking to script that most fire-and-brimstone preachers have stuck to for the last three or four hundred years.
In conclusion, anyone trying to weigh the merits of each position will be strongly persuaded that Logos_x is the much stronger and more persuasive of the two. I cannot see anyone with an open mind walking from this debate without being convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal redemption is what God intends for His children, not endless torment for 99% of them.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 08-22-2011 at 11:57 PM..
Reason: grammar & punctuation
I will say that I had temporarily veered off UR and gone back to annihilationism for a short period but reading this debate has renewed my faith in God's absolute determination to save every last human.
I cannot see anyone with an open mind walking from this debate without being convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal redemption is what God intends for His children, not endless torment for 99% of them.
IMO it takes an open mind to wade past the mistranslations, misinterpretations and indoctrinations that abound in christianity.
Do you remember how hard it was for you to understand what we were talking about?
Another excerpt:
"A few words of caution: I hope I have made it clear that in teaching universal salvation, I have not tried to minimize sin, nor have I taught that sinners will be saved while still clinging to their sins. I believe that many people have terrible sufferings awaiting them after they leave this life-how long and how severe I leave up to a loving and just God. But I believe that God never punishes for punishment's sake. He always has the sinner's repentance and restoration in view, and in His wisdom He knows exactly what it will take in each case to bring about the desired results!"
The sad thing is they polled readers and ET won the debate. It seems people weren't able to accept this new way of thinking so a lot voted tie. I wonder why UR is so frightening to some? As if you will be sent to hell for not believing in hell as eternal suffering.
Another excerpt:
"A few words of caution: I hope I have made it clear that in teaching universal salvation, I have not tried to minimize sin, nor have I taught that sinners will be saved while still clinging to their sins. I believe that many people have terrible sufferings awaiting them after they leave this life-how long and how severe I leave up to a loving and just God. But I believe that God never punishes for punishment's sake. He always has the sinner's repentance and restoration in view, and in His wisdom He knows exactly what it will take in each case to bring about the desired results!"
The sad thing is they polled readers and ET won the debate. It seems people weren't able to accept this new way of thinking so a lot voted tie. I wonder why UR is so frightening to some? As if you will be sent to hell for not believing in hell as eternal suffering.
Isn't it incredible, kat???
You'd think they'd welcome truly "good news" with open arms. But there are probably several reasons:
* Christians are so indoctrinated to ET that it's like a drug habit they cannot kick.
* they feel they have to play it safe "just in case". I know--I felt that way for a long time.
* As logos_x points out, everybody who believes in ET thinks they are already saved.
I know it's not for lack of evidence as this debate makes abundantly clear.
For the other respondents here. I am taking my responses to you slowly because I want to keep this thread alive. Typically, when the thread falls to about halfway I will make a response to earlier posts to pull it up.
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The Absolutely BEST Debate on Universalism vs ET I Have Ever Read
