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Division comes after the creation, not during
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. That is a critical point to understanding God's providence over His creation and the concepts of good and evil, divine election, calling, etc.
Sorry but division is a part of Gods creation. It does not come after, but is a part of.
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There is a different Hebrew word (בַּדל) that means to divide or to separate. It is found after the act of creation (from the same lump if you will, Rom 9:21) in Gen 1:4:
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Finish the rest of the quote.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
The first day was not complete until after God divided the light from the darkness.
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God creates evil to be the consequences, or outcome, of sin.
Although evil is the consequence of sin, God has nothing to do with sin, nor with evil.
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I think it's use was appropriate when it was used in the NT for quoting OT scriptures, to bring out a particular understanding (or inspiration) of the Hebrew text. However, not all, or even most, NT quotations are derived from the Septuagint, which should give you pause for quoting from it to the exclusion of the Hebrew.
I don't exclude the Hebrew, but even those translation you gave are not the Hebrew they are translations. I check the OT and the NT and when I see the NT telling me God does not work evil, or think evil and some translation tells me in the OT that God does create evil I lean toward the writers of the NT as they are the ones Jesus revealed the Father to.
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It is though. Compare that Hebrew term (ֶגֶּבר) and how it's used in Job describing man's condition and attributes (or essence) with relation to God. The word occurs about 15 times or so, that I counted.
You can take each account and put mighty warrior in place of the Hebrew word and you get a clearer picture of what is being said. Both the Hebrew and the Greek paint a picture with words.
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God rules over all hearts, and searches out all things therein, including those of earthly king's. What royal hearts are you referring to. Certainly not these, right?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Those scriptures have nothing to do with God ruling the hearts of evil men, they just tell us God knows what is in the hearts of evil men.
People reject God rule Storm. I have already given a couple of scriptures that show this.
Thanks for sharing your belief, Pneuma. But I will share that I believe that the devil led Jesus only after the Holy Spirit led Him into the wilderness to be tempted by satan. God took Him to satan to be tempted. This is why Jesus was sent into the wilderness. Satan only does what God permits him to do and I believe, has a purpose in the plan of God. Just as God gave him permission to afflict Job. Whatever satan was when he was created or however he came to be, was no accident or mistake. God never fails. There are instances in the scriptures someone being turned over to satan for a reason, for a higher purpose. Take care and God bless.
The law is our adversary sis, Paul turned them over to the law.
Hi, this is an example of God condescending to communicate to man on His level. Just as He asks Adam where he is, when He already knows where he is. God in His omniscience sees beginning to end and already knows what will happen. He knows our thoughts, our plans, our intents, our hearts and whatever we will say before we say it or even when we cannot say it.
No scripture tells us God condescends to communicate with man on his level sis, this is just something man made up in order to support their belief.
However scripture does tell us quite plainly that God changes His mind when we pray, we repent, we are obedient or disobedient.
God said Hezekiah would die of his sickness, that did NOT happen because Hezekiah prayed and God changed His mind. Same thing with Nineveh.
And that God had to ask Adam where He was shows that until God came to search out Adam God did not know where Adam was. That is the plainness of what the scriptures say and people change it all around to suite their doctrine because they believe God know everything man will do before creation. Scripture does not bare that out.
I already gave a few scriptures that show that scripture does not bare that doctrine out but here is another one.
The Israelites did something that God said never entered into His mind. So if God knew Israel was going to do what they did before creation how can God say it never entered into His mind?
Also we have the story of Abe, and it was not until Abe did what he did that God said "now I know" that you will not withhold anything from me.
Up until that time God did not know what Abe would do. He tests us for a reason, it is to see if our hearts are for Him or not.
1Then was Jesus led up/anago of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Lu.4:5
And the devil, taking him up/anago into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
It is the same word used of the chief priests and scribes when they led Jesus into their council and asked basically the same question satan asked Jesus
And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led/anago him into their council, saying, Art thou the Christ? tell us.
Obviously that is true, however how this comes about, without doing violence to what man freely chooses, is where the difficulty arises. Two scriptures that state this seemingly contradictory idea are shown here:
Pro 16:1 THE preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD .
Pro 16:9 A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
How do you understand this?
The LORD makes it clear our tongue is an open sepulchure if not salted being led by his Holy Spirit. The man (trusting in the flesh) speaking with few words is counted wise the Proverbs say (<paraphrase). The LORD directing our steps I believe refers to his Spirit in us delivering us from evil and delivering us through trials producing fruit.
We are physical ponds subject to spiritual forces. We are servants to whom we obey the Lord says. His Spirit delivers us from the bondage of sin directing our steps being led by the Spirit. As born-again believers, we have the choice to overcome the powerful destructive spiritual forces of sin.
The awe of God is knowing he will use our free will to accomplish his divine plan. God intervenes in our lives to bring us to him by calling out to us in his spirit and in different ways, but there seems to be a point where he stops calling as much allowing people to head on their path to destruction without intervention. Romans 1 talks about God giving people over to lusts. I believe the exegesis is actually suggesting that God let them alone to fulfil their lusts they were already pursuing thus subjecting them to the powers of darkness. Scary stuff. We all need to be humble and thankful of his mercy calling out to us delivering us from this destructive force overcoming so many lives. The Romans 1 jugement seems to be directly from the Pagan man denying YHWH as creator.
The scripture talks about "hardening our hearts". It could have something to do with the "deceitfulness of sin". It's something we do, but God may not intervene with his Spirit convicting us of our sin.
Every one of us was created for a reason. God is the potter, we are the clay. Some vessels are made unto honor, and some are made to be vessels of dishonor to be smashed to pieces. Even evil was created for God's purposes in the end.
The awesome nature of the LORD should drive us all to humility. We pray for the Lord to deliver us from temptation. He leads our steps. We can choose to request this and be led by his spirit once born again.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 01-05-2012 at 10:48 PM..
If you look at the Greek text, there are two different words being used for led and taking up:
Luk 4:1 AND Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
Jesus was being led (Greek ηγετο) by the Spirit. This Greek word has the meaning of leading by driving and by inducing with force.
Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
In Ver 5, the Greek word is αναγαγων, sometimes translated as led in modern translations. The meaning here is to "lead up" or "take up" to a high place. It really does not mean to be led, as it does in the Spirit, in verse 1. The NASV gets poor marks in this regard.
So, I agree with your interpretation.
Surprisingly though, the term ηγαγεν is used in Verse 9, similar to verse 1, but this time translated as "brought".
Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
The only consistent translation is YLT, surprise, surprise....but even YLT misses the distinction between the two different Greek words...
Ok I see where you get the two different words storm. I used led from MT 4:1 and compared it with Lu.4:5. You are just using luke comparing luke with luke.
But does it really make a difference?
Not according to Mt. As Mt uses anago when speaking of Jesus being led.
Also of note is that led in luke 4:1 is ago and is used of people being led away with divers lusts.
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led/ago away with divers lusts,
trus
The LORD makes it clear our tongue is an open sepulchure if not salted being led by his Holy Spirit. The man (trusting in the flesh) speaking with few words is counted wise the Proverbs say (<paraphrase). The LORD directing our steps I believe refers to his Spirit in us delivering us from evil and delivering us through trials producing fruit.
We are physical ponds subject to spiritual forces. We are servants to whom we obey the Lord says. His Spirit delivers us from the bondage of sin directing our steps being led by the Spirit.
Amen Lee, God directs our steps out of sin and death, not into sin and death. I really cannot see how people can get this so confused.
Well then would not God be lying to tell Hezekiah that he was going to die of his sickness to begin with, same as with Nineveh?
Certainly, but the scriptural context of lying has to do with what God cannot do, God cannot lie if that lie would ultimatly be for the ultimate spiritual harm. Just like Rahab lied but did not sin, just like the instance in in 2 Corinthians, I believe it was Paul who tricked someone into the truth. God can also send a lying spirit so someone will believe a lie. We are traditionally condition to think lying is a bad thing, what we should be teaching is how a lie can be good because it is the knowledge and intent behind the lie that actually matters.
My Mother in law who has passed on quit smoking due to a lie, it was even a family conspiracy. It was not wrong, it helped her to not suffer nearly as bad with emphysema.
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Also how can there be more then one possiblity if God know what path we will take?
Well, as I see it, there is more than one possibility, because there is. Just like when I get hungry, the fact that I choose to eat a certain thing doesn't mean I never had multiple choices before I chose. Just because God knows the direction we will take doesn't inherantly make only one possibility.
God already knows the outcome, that doesn't mean we were not created in a realm where we have multiple choices to take in most circumstances.
Certainly, but the scriptural context of lying has to do with what God cannot do, God cannot lie if that lie would ultimatly be for the ultimate spiritual harm. Just like Rahab lied but did not sin, just like the instance in in 2 Corinthians, I believe it was Paul who tricked someone into the truth. God can also send a lying spirit so someone will believe a lie. We are traditionally condition to think lying is a bad thing, what we should be teaching is how a lie can be good because it is the knowledge and intent behind the lie that actually matters.
My Mother in law who has passed on quit smoking due to a lie, it was even a family conspiracy. It was not wrong, it helped her to not suffer nearly as bad with emphysema.
Yet scripture says God cannot lie. Brother if God can lie He cannot be trusted.
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Well, as I see it, there is more than one possibility, because there is. Just like when I get hungry, the fact that I choose to eat a certain thing doesn't mean I never had multiple choices before I chose. Just because God knows the direction we will take doesn't inherantly make only one possibility.
God already knows the outcome, that doesn't mean we were not created in a realm where we have multiple choices to take in most circumstances.
Myself I agree with the multiple choices Phase but if God know which choice we are going to make before creation and planned out the choice we will make there is no multiple choices.
Yet scripture says God cannot lie. Brother if God can lie He cannot be trusted.
We can conveniently say scripture says a lot of things. How many times do you get the "God created evil" speech saying scripture says it? Does it say it?
Yes he can be trusted when you know what he cannot do with a lie. I know that I can trust God to direct me where I need to be, I can resist and get myself into trouble, God might cause me to believe a lie so that I get out of it. What is the scriptural context of lying, you can post a scripture, but does it mean as you imply just because you have a point?
We can say God would never kill a human because God is not a murderer, but murder and killing are mutually exclusive in intent. One contextual premise with scripture is always intent. It is the intent that matters not the specific act that we can make an argument about.
If someone breaks into my home and I kill them have I committed an immoral act, am I a murderer?
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Myself I agree with the multiple choices Phase but if God know which choice we are going to make before creation and planned out the choice we will make there is no multiple choices
I do not think God planned our choices, he did not "plan" that I would do all the bad things I did. I was created an individual and I made all the choices I made and God prepared for them all. It is the nature of things and God knows it backwards and forwards.
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