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What is the application of this doctrine to your life? Is it primarily a concern for the character of God that He would not permit eternal torment for men? Thanks again!
As other members know, my inability to love an endless-hell god caused me to have a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78. (I'm 73 now). And I have learned through the years that there are many people who have suffered for the same reason. That is why it gives me great pleasure to guide them to the info that was such a help to me. Had I not found that info I'm sure I would have been locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of my life.
Speaking for myself, being able to believe in UR makes Jesus so wonderful to me that I want to please Him every moment of every day.
The realization that God will eventually reach all hearts shows to me the magnitude and nature of God's love for all of us and helps me to see what the power of this love will do. It never fails and will win every heart to Himself. This helps me to have a greater love for all people, no matter what they have done. I don't see people like I use to. I know that God has a plan for each and every one and will have them all one day.
I know that sin and darkness are not greater than the power and love of God to open all eyes and to restore all to Himself. We serve a great God who will accomplish whatever He desires. Love wins in the end. Love wins. The realization of the eventual restoration of all to God through Jesus, magnifies God's agape love, power, justice, mercy, patience, sovereignty, goodness, holiness and all that He is. He is the Savior of all men and this is good news. Jesus doesn't end up with a handful while the majority are lost forever. Death and sin don't get to keep any. Jesus gets all that He bled and died for.
Has this realization of what God will do for all, made a difference in my life? Yes. I no longer try to please Him out of a fear of an everlasting hell. I want to get to know Him more and more each day and I want to live for Him, trust Him, rest in Him and share this with others who are lost and who need Him. Believers are supposed to be lights in the world and have purpose in the plan of God. God has great plans for us and we should be preparing for the future which isn't about walking streets of gold or playing harps. It is about being a part of the restoration process and so I am looking forward to this and want my life to be one reflects this. God bless.
Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [i]in hope* 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
*hope=elpis=expectation
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-29-2012 at 08:57 PM..
As other members know, my inability to love an endless-hell god caused me to have a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78. (I'm 73 now). And I have learned through the years that there are many people who have suffered for the same reason. That is why it gives me great pleasure to guide them to the info that was such a help to me. Had I not found that info I'm sure I would have been locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of my life.
Speaking for myself, being able to believe in UR makes Jesus so wonderful to me that I want to please Him every moment of every day.
I'm so glad you found the comfort of UR, Rodger. I NEVER try to comfort nonbelievers with UR. If they don't believe in God, or Jesus, they don't fear hell. Neither the threat of hell or the assurance of heaven affects their behavior. If you don't believe in Allah, do you fear any of the warnings of the Muslim faith?
But I mostly share UR with people so they can be ASSURED of their own future. Not because they desire to live a sinful life, but to assure them there is NOTHING they can do to remove themselves from God's love. I believe this causes one to desire even MORE to emulate and please God, who IS LOVE.
And even more, to comfort someone that a parent, child or sibling, even a dear friend, who died as a Buddhist, Muslim, agnostic, or atheist, has not descended into a pit where they will forever be tortured and beyond mercy and forgiveness. I am not sure what state my grandfather died in, he never really claimed to believe in God. But I am convinced in my spirit that God will raise him out of death and teach him and do any correcting necessary in the age designed for that purpose. Whether anyone is comforted by my words or can believe it is not my job. Only God can open one's eyes to His existence and only He can convince you of His final plans for His creation.
There is a day to come where God will be all in all, without exception. Praise God from whom ALL blessings flow.
I'm so glad you found the comfort of UR, Rodger. I NEVER try to comfort nonbelievers with UR. If they don't believe in God, or Jesus, they don't fear hell. Neither the threat of hell or the assurance of heaven affects their behavior. If you don't believe in Allah, do you fear any of the warnings of the Muslim faith?
But I mostly share UR with people so they can be ASSURED of their own future. Not because they desire to live a sinful life, but to assure them there is NOTHING they can do to remove themselves from God's love. I believe this causes one to desire even MORE to emulate and please God, who IS LOVE.
And even more, to comfort someone that a parent, child or sibling, even a dear friend, who died as a Buddhist, Muslim, agnostic, or atheist, has not descended into a pit where they will forever be tortured and beyond mercy and forgiveness. I am not sure what state my grandfather died in, he never really claimed to believe in God. But I am convinced in my spirit that God will raise him out of death and teach him and do any correcting necessary in the age designed for that purpose. Whether anyone is comforted by my words or can believe it is not my job. Only God can open one's eyes to His existence and only He can convince you of His final plans for His creation.
There is a day to come where God will be all in all, without exception. Praise God from whom ALL blessings flow.
Blessings on us all this week!
I have another question about UR.... If this is a correct understanding, if punishment or correction is just temporary, why did Jesus speak so adamantly about the cost and importance of true discipleship? And why did Stephen, 11 of the 12 apostles, many of the early church fathers, and countless disciples throughout history suffer terrible but glorious martyrdom for His kingdom? It just doesn't add up...... to my mind. that seems pretty drastic for something that is not all that severe or long lasting. I am not sure I would die for Christ in some of the horrific ways that happened if UR were true. Just thoughts.....
I have another question about UR.... If this is a correct understanding, if punishment or correction is just temporary, why did Jesus speak so adamantly about the cost and importance of true discipleship? And why did Stephen, 11 of the 12 apostles, many of the early church fathers, and countless disciples throughout history suffer terrible but glorious martyrdom for His kingdom? It just doesn't add up...... to my mind. that seems pretty drastic for something that is not all that severe or long lasting. I am not sure I would die for Christ in some of the horrific ways that happened if UR were true. Just thoughts.....
Death is temporary . . . no matter how horrific. The simple inescapable truth is that we will reap what we sow . . . not more than we sow and not less than we sow. I would ONLY die for Christ knowing that UR is true. I could never die for a vengeful, megalomaniacal tyrant who eternally tormented anyone for any reason.
I have another question about UR.... If this is a correct understanding, if punishment or correction is just temporary, why did Jesus speak so adamantly about the cost and importance of true discipleship? And why did Stephen, 11 of the 12 apostles, many of the early church fathers, and countless disciples throughout history suffer terrible but glorious martyrdom for His kingdom? It just doesn't add up...... to my mind. that seems pretty drastic for something that is not all that severe or long lasting. I am not sure I would die for Christ in some of the horrific ways that happened if UR were true. Just thoughts.....
Hi again Steph. I'm inclined to say, if you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that is exactly what God is like.
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of everlasting suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a God Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills.
That is the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
Here is the testimony/exposition of Charles Slagle.
The thought processes that took him into, and through, and out of his breakdown are very similar to what I went through. Maybe it will help you understand URs better if you read it.
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST Absolute Assurance
I have another question about UR.... If this is a correct understanding, if punishment or correction is just temporary, why did Jesus speak so adamantly about the cost and importance of true discipleship? And why did Stephen, 11 of the 12 apostles, many of the early church fathers, and countless disciples throughout history suffer terrible but glorious martyrdom for His kingdom? It just doesn't add up...... to my mind. that seems pretty drastic for something that is not all that severe or long lasting. I am not sure I would die for Christ in some of the horrific ways that happened if UR were true. Just thoughts.....
Oh Steph, there is so much I've come to understand and believe that you just can't share in a paragraph or two.
First of all, when Paul talks about running the race and winning the crown, of wondering if he would 'inherit the crown,' it is MY belief that he is NOT talking about becoming immortal and living in a happy state with Christ and loved ones. I believe he understood that is assured for everyone eventually. What he was concerned with was receiving a place in the kingdom of God. (He had been a Pharisee, remember, a leader taught by one of the most respected men (Gamaliel).
Ruling and reigning with Christ during that thousand year period (whether that is a literal number of years or symbolic is not important, I'm sure it will be longer than the mere 70 year life span we are working with currently. Humans do all manner of unspeakable things just to get some power and recognition for this measly current lifespan. Why would one NOT, if it was called for, suffer some reproach and persecution in THIS age in order to serve a king who will bring righteousness and love to the world? Does this NOT seem reasonable to you? Especially those who first understood this wonderful message. This beautiful promise of life for all.
Many were/are called to be part of the leaders in that kingdom. Not all answered and of those who did, many could not continue to make the sacrifices necessary to become a bondservant/co-ruler with Christ, then and now. But think on this. IF only overcomers are present in the kingdom, who then are the overcomers ruling over? Each other? Does that make sense? There is much in the Bible that begins to make much more sense when you begin to see how the overcomers are the FIRST, the FIRSTFRUITS, who God uses in the next age to bring the rest to the knowledge of God's love and work in their lives.
Recall the parables about the servants who were given certain tasks to see to while their master was gone? The ones who did good were given rewards, but the ones who failed suffered loss. The gift of life is free. Christ ensured that. But the cost of discipleship is difficult.
Some may feel that it is worth it to have riches and treasure in this life to give up some rewards in THAT age. They will sadly see their error then. But even Christ and his firstfruits rule only for a time, UNTIL all is subjected to Him. THEN Christ gives up His rulership to the Father. There will be no need of any other headship when all are intimately connected to Him personally.
So, in my way of thinking, people err when they mix up the qualifications for rulership with being granted life beyond this one. And also if they think living a self centered life here and now is worth the correction they will have to submit to in the coming age. I know not how long they will suffer this correction or how difficult it will be. I suspect that will be determined by the severity of our ignorance and lack of love for our fellow men. But, as with any truly loving parent, I trust that even those enduring correction will be assured of our Father's love and loving purpose even in that correction.
May God grant you peace and assurance, Steph, and all who are searching.
Thanks Rodger! I don't agree with the article's author's conclusion about no punishment in the afterlife. But, I don't think it is nearly as bad to think there is a limited time punishment for evildoers as it is to think there is no punishment whatsoever. So, while i don't see this belief (of UR as you have described it) as a terrible false doctrine or anything, I still don't see the practicality of this doctrine to my life or to the preaching of the gospel. Ultimately, Jesus is still the judge of the living and the dead, we are still to implore unbelievers to flee the wrath to come, we are still all going to stand before God on judgement day and should therefore be concerned with our conduct on earth. We shouldn't be going around trying to comfort people who reject Jesus, by saying that it is alright, God isn't going to punish them forever. Whenever i am examining a 'doctrine' i always try to consider whether it is a teaching that leads to godly living, based on Paul's charge to Titus and to Timothy about the aim of doctrine. Just my thoughts . What is the application of this doctrine to your life? Is it primarily a concern for the character of God that He would not permit eternal torment for men? Thanks again!
Hi Steph, I don't know whether you realise it or not but the Jews of old held the same idea you do here. Paul preached grace and they basically said that by doing so gave the people a licences to sin, but Paul still continued to preach grace.
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that seems pretty drastic for something that is not all that severe or long lasting. I am not sure I would die for Christ in some of the horrific ways that happened if UR were true. Just thoughts.....
. What is the application of this doctrine to your life? Is it primarily a concern for the character of God that He would not permit eternal torment for men? Thanks again!
