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According to an OT quote of God he LOVES to smell the aroma of burning flesh. Jesus Christ has perfected the Way you must have the faith to USE to prevent God from smelling the aroma of your hide in the fire. However the mystical mystic that you are and admitt you are is not going to prevent God from smelling the aroma he LOVES to smell burning. Your hide.
What I find appalling is that you actually believe this about God and still proclaim Him as the God you love and worship!
My understanding is the Pelagius believed that men are made inherently good and we have the the ability to obey God, apart from grace. He had a strong sense of the free will of man and felt that Augustine's views were fatalistic.
That's interesting. I actually believe he was wrong, too. I don't believe we are inherently good. I believe that we have all inherited Adam's human nature, which is predisposed to sin. I don't believe we could possibly get through life without sinning and that we need Christ's grace to be able to be forgiven of our sins. On the other hand, I don't believe we are born guilty of anything. I believe that we're pure and clean in God's eyes and remain free from sin until we actually sin. So I guess I'm going to have cast my vote for "Neither."
Confessing of sins is the Augustinan error and is the sinister thing that the OP is referencing.
No, that is not the sinister thing that may have arisen from Augustine prevailing over Pelagius. If you look at the heart of their dispute, and not just at what you consider Augustinian error, you may better understand what potentially sinister practices and erroneous teachings have come about thanks to Augustine's battle with Pelagius.
That's interesting. I actually believe he was wrong, too. I don't believe we are inherently good. I believe that we have all inherited Adam's human nature, which is predisposed to sin. I don't believe we could possibly get through life without sinning and that we need Christ's grace to be able to be forgiven of our sins. On the other hand, I don't believe we are born guilty of anything. I believe that we're pure and clean in God's eyes and remain free from sin until we actually sin. So I guess I'm going to have cast my vote for "Neither."
So what's your view?
This is God's viewpoint about our purity and cleaness, Gen. 8:21c, "for the imagination of man's heart is EVIL from his youth;" It is true that you are not born guilty of anything, but you are naturally born, and every naturally born person is not a child of God, see Jn. 1:13 & Rom. 9:8.
That's interesting. I actually believe he was wrong, too. I don't believe we are inherently good. I believe that we have all inherited Adam's human nature, which is predisposed to sin. I don't believe we could possibly get through life without sinning and that we need Christ's grace to be able to be forgiven of our sins. On the other hand, I don't believe we are born guilty of anything. I believe that we're pure and clean in God's eyes and remain free from sin until we actually sin. So I guess I'm going to have cast my vote for "Neither."
So what's your view?
Hi Katzpur. Personally, I would pick c. - neither of them were right. Seems like a pretty nifty idea of Satan's to distract everybody from truth by getting two errors into a big fat fight and then have one trump the other and get adopted into orthodoxy, as the most influential lie ever to poison our understanding of salvation. This is assuming of course that what we are told Pelagius believed is really what he believed. Apparently, he was a very godly man, and even his adversaries could not fault him in this regard. I wonder if he really was so dismissive of our need for dependance on God.... But we'll never know. One need only to look at Jesus to see a perfect example of dependence on God.
In any event, the Augustinian victory IMO was virtually assured before it even started, as his idea of the innate sinfulness of humankind was very favorable to the objectives of the catholic church (think: infant baptism...).
John Calvin and others in the protestant reformation, including Martin Luther, were very influenced by Augustine. In fact, all 5 of the so called points of Calvin stand or fall together on the doctrine of original sin. I believe it can be demonstrated that understanding the nature of man is a huge key to appreciating and understanding many other soteriological things such as the atonement, the righteousness which we have by faith, justification, sanctification, the so called eternal security question, and more.
I both love and hate doctrine and I feel so horrid sometimes about the simplicity of Christ being traded in for something so "wooden". The only thing wooden about the glorious gospel is the cross on which Jesus died. But it appears to have been splintered over history...nevertheless, I don't believe the truth of the gospel is faltering at all...it is a blazing fire of passion and God flexing His mighty muscles!
No, that is not the sinister thing that may have arisen from Augustine prevailing over Pelagius. If you look at the heart of their dispute, and not just at what you consider Augustinian error, you may better understand what potentially sinister practices and erroneous teachings have come about thanks to Augustine's battle with Pelagius.
I am fully aware of what erroneous teachings and sinister religious practices that have been the result of the crowds chumminess with the that battle's winner. But does is it take a boat load of leaven to leaven the whole lump or only a pinch? It would have not made one iota of difference who was declared the battle's winner the result would still be the same result. For the percuiram is the correct idenity of exactly what the leaven actually is whereby only a single pinch of it is necessary to corrupt the whole lump. This was the error of all the reformist for they unanimously failed to first identify the leaven and you are doing exactly what they did.
This is God's viewpoint about our purity and cleaness, Gen. 8:21c, "for the imagination of man's heart is EVIL from his youth;" It is true that you are not born guilty of anything, but you are naturally born, and every naturally born person is not a child of God, see Jn. 1:13 & Rom. 9:8.
I believe we're all children of God. Those of us who are old enough to be able to discern between right and wrong have inevitably chosen wrong at some point. I don't think that God stops considering us His children when we do that. I just think He wants us to repent.
I believe we're all children of God. Those of us who are old enough to be able to discern between right and wrong have inevitably chosen wrong at some point. I don't think that God stops considering us His children when we do that. I just think He wants us to repent.
Think as you wish. But the scripture does fully NOT agree with your conjecture. God has actually said "You are the children of your father the devil" because of having been naturally born as descendant of Adam. Your present parental linage has nothing at all to do with any choice you have made or will make regarding rightness or wrongness. But to become born again of God, which is a must, you must accept the correct way to use to be born again of God and you have no choise in the matter of what this Way is. For it is the faith to use the Way God has perfected by Jesus' crucifixion or pay hell forever for not using it. That is God's choise concerning this matter regardless of your dislike of that confine.
I believe we're all children of God. Those of us who are old enough to be able to discern between right and wrong have inevitably chosen wrong at some point. I don't think that God stops considering us His children when we do that. I just think He wants us to repent.
You are correct, Katz . . . We are God's children and can never become not God's children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz
Think as you wish. But the scripture does fully NOT agree with your conjecture. God has actually said "You are the children of your father the devil" because of having been naturally born as descendant of Adam. Your present parental linage has nothing at all to do with any choice you have made or will make regarding rightness or wrongness. But to become born again of God, which is a must, you must accept the correct way to use to be born again of God and you have no choise in the matter of what this Way is. For it is the faith to use the Way God has perfected by Jesus' crucifixion or pay hell forever for not using it. That is God's choise concerning this matter regardless of your dislike of that confine.
Take your Satan seed cult beliefs and your evil ideas about our God and peddle them elsewhere. Christians love God and God loves us, period.
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