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I was just reading through some sections of Hebrews earlier, and there is a constant theme of purification for sins through the sacrifice of Jesus. Even in relation to OT cleansing or atonement, there never seems to be a penal element to the sacrifices.... just a constant reminder that blood will cleanse us of our sins. Is this correct?
Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
While Hebrews 10 looks to be a trouble verse for eternal secure concept
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26
, the context is Sacrificing Animals to take away sins. The writer in Hebrews (Paul most likely due to his style) is talking to Jewish Christians thus why it's called "Book of Hebrews". He was explaining all sacrifices before hand were to cleanse the conscience of sins, but could never take away sins as Messiah did. So taken in context, the specific sin being talked about in Hebrews 10:26 is going back to the Animal Sacrifice system because it is rejecting God's work in Messiah on that cross making it imperfect. So no more sacrifice for sins for those Jewish early Christians that reject Messiah by going back to the system of performing Animal Sacrifices. That's how I understand it currently. Had to comment on that as it is one of those verses many are troubled with.
Here's a good article regarding Old Testament Sacrifices
I'm not sure what you mean by there being a "penal element" to the sacrifices. From what I understand, all but three sins in the Old Testament were forgivable - Blasphemy, Adultery, and Murder. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-01-2012 at 09:12 AM..
Reason: took away winky eye unintended
The "cup" is that Jesus "drank" was the cup of God's wrath about sin .... your sin, my sin..... everybody's sin.
That is why Jesus is the subsitute for, not the example of. That is meaning John 3:36.
Which was what John was told in Revelation 14:9-11 in greater detail:
“If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
People who reject Jesus as God and as their subsitute forfeits what Jesus did for them.
Therefore......the payment becomes theirs again.
That's what Jesus said... that's what Jesus revealed ... that's what Jesus commanded John to write down.
Sorry Twin, I think it's total conjecture and imposition of your interpretation upon the text to say that the cup of Revelation 14 is the same as the cup that Jesus drank on the cross.
Why do I say that?
Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
So I ask you - did these apostles drink the cup of God's fury?
Please find another way to show me that Jesus was punished by God for our sins on the cross.
Wrong! You reject the given definition of eisegesis and substitute your own personal definition in order to validate your own ignorant eisegetic interpretations.
You reject the Scriptures as I have said. And you derisively refer to those who do follow the Scriptures as 'Biblians.'
The Old Testament has accurately revealed God to the extent that He chose to reveal Himself. God's revelation is progressive.
And the Bible, being the word of God is inerrant. That you deny that is more proof that you reject the Scriptures.
But you will not listen. You are too caught up in what you think you know, when in fact you know very little about the word of God.
And I have spent enough time on this. I think most people know to disregard the things you say.
John 8:43
Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say
Luke 8:12
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
It's quite simple actually why some do not listen.
When one rejects "thesearewritten"
then one the isn't able to "believe that Jesus is the Christ"
which ultimatly "that by believing you may have life in his name"
So when one rejects what they hear from what is written: (the Bible only)
the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts
Sorry Twin, I think it's total conjecture and imposition of your interpretation upon the text to say that the cup of Revelation 14 is the same as the cup that Jesus drank on the cross.
Why do I say that?
Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
So I ask you - did these apostles drink the cup of God's fury?
Please find another way to show me that Jesus was punished by God for our sins on the cross.
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “MyGod, myGod, why have you forsaken me?”
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed
Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Please find another way to show me that Jesus was punished by God for our sins on the cross.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed
Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
It about kills me to have to say this , but I think twin.spin provided some pretty darned good evidence that Jesus was punished for our sins.
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “MyGod, myGod, why have you forsaken me?”
So you are answering Jesus' question and wanting me to accept that your answer is obviously the right one. God withheld His help from Jesus, of that there is no question!
Quote:
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
"Bore our sins in His body" means He was punished?
Quote:
Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
"pierced.... crushed.... punishment... wounds..."
None of this says that God did it, only that it happened to Jesus. Later, it says that it was God's will to crush Him and put Him to grief, but this also doesn't infer punishment by God - only that it was God's will for Him to suffer. I'd say, strictly speaking, punishment BY GOD has to be read into the text to be found there.
Basically, the reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that we could be forgiven and go to be with the Lord. Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and only God can satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins.
All people have sinned against God. But, God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Law- breaker. If He didn't, then His law is not Law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. Therefore, we sinners need a way to escape the righteous judgment of God. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only one who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human.
He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.
Matthew 27:46
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “MyGod, myGod, why have you forsaken me?”
1 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed
Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
It about kills me to have to say this , but I think twin.spin provided some pretty darned good evidence that Jesus was punished for our sins.
::Sigh:: It doesn't kill me to have to say this . . . but NO . . . Twin did no such thing. The Isaiah cite contains the erroneous view of God under the veil of ignorance over the OT using the mindset that anyone afflicted was afflicted by God. The Peter cite simply describes what Christ endured (bore) from our savagery (sins) to display the true nature of God through His act of love for us all and be inspired to live righteously.
It about kills me to have to say this , but I think twin.spin provided some pretty darned good evidence that Jesus was punished for our sins.
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, but I think twin.spin provided some pretty darned good evidence that Jesus was punished for our sins.
