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Not sure about your line of reasoning here, Verna, but Christ didn't pray to the Father on the cross. And what's more God did not forsaken Christ at that moment either.
When looking at different 'events' in the Scriptures it's important to understand the customs etc of the day.
First the Scriptures didn't have chapter/verses back in the day, but ppl were fully aware of what was 'written.'
So if someone wanted to tell you about/remind you of, what we call the 23rd Psalm, they'd say, "The Lord is my Shepherd."
So, Christ knowing the events happening around the cross [high Priest insulting him, gambling for His clothes, etc etc] were proof of who He claimed to be, He quoted the first line of Psa. 22: "My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?"
In otherwords, the ppl that heard Him quote this Psalm immediately knew what He meant.
Again, going back to the customs of the day explains why Christ also said, "It is finished."
Most ppl think/teach Chrsit meant He had accomplished what He came to do. That IS partly correct. However the custom of Passover was for the High Priest to examine the sacrifical lamb for 3 days to assure it had no spot or blemish.
Then at 3 PM [same time Christ cried out, "It is finished"] the High Priest, assured the lamb was 'perfect' would call out, "It is finished!" to announce to the ppl the lamb was fit to be sacrificed.
Again, the ppl standing around the cross knew this custom and would have understood Christ crying out the same words made Him THE perfect Passover Lamb.
Amen.... you are correct !!
I also read that His words spoken, "My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?" and found in my study that those words as you have shared....were for their benefit as they knew very much about Psalms 22 when David cry out to the Lord God and also I came to understand He spoke them on our behalf..... if we had to experienced paying for our sins....
For He knew all the time that the Father (because He is God) would never forsaken Him or us... amen !!
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 02-09-2012 at 10:08 AM..
"Christ has glories far greater and grander than orthodoxy ever dreamed, yet they are due to His subjection to the will of His God and Father...Having been an honest and conscientious, but unintelligent, defender of the "fundamental" doctrine of the deity of Christ for many years myself, I can understand and sympathize with those who think it is taught in the Scriptures, and is absolutely essential to salvation. We imagined that the only alternative was to degrade Christ to a mere man, like ourselves. We reasoned that He must be Deity, or He could not do all that He did and will do. Therefore He must be equal to His Father . That our reasoning was illogical did not disturb us. But we did not believe His own words concerning Himself! We were so determined to honor Him that we denied the Scriptures which define His place as God's Anointed, the Mediator between God and man.
Had we been as logical as a child, we would never have fought for more than one God, or sought to coerce our minds by blurring the distinct idea of the Deity into a "Godhead with three Persons," a specious form of sophistry which is utterly unscriptural. God's spirit and His Anointed are closely associated with Him, and their relationship to each other is simple and clear in His revelation....
All of this evidence and reasoning should be unnecessary, since the apostle Paul has clearly and conclusively defined the relation between God and Christ. We need never descend to such futilities, for webelieve that "there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is,...and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is" (1 Cor.8:6).
A.E. Knoch
"For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." (1 Timothy 2:5)
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-09-2012 at 07:08 PM..
"for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of My own accord,
but He sent Me." [ John 8:42]
"To sit at My right hand and at My left is not Mine to grant, but it is for
those for whom it has been prepared by my Father" [Matthew 20:23]
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." [Mr 13:32]
"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me" [John 7:16]
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but He who does the will of My Father in heaven." [Mt 7:21]
"And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of
Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape. [John 5:37]
"And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." [Mr 10:18]
"And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges." [John 8:50]
John 8:54-56 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
John 17:3: Now this is *eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
*eternal=aionios
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.
The Father granted or gave life to the Son.
**********************
"Jesus said to her, I am ascending to My Father and Your Father, to MY God and your God.'" - John 20:17 (RSV)
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." [John 14:24]
"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." [John 12:49]
"Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to accomplish His work." [John 4:34]
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." [John 6:38]
"saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;
nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." [Luke 22:42]
" I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]
"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master,
nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." [John 13:16]
John 6. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
John 17: 25 “These things I have spoken to you in [f]figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in [g]figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”
John 17
1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to [a]all whom You have given Him, He may give *eternal life. 3 This is *eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [f]believe that You sent Me.
Matthew: 28:17 "When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
[b]"You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [John 14:28]
The Son has a God. The Father does not have a God.
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-09-2012 at 08:12 PM..
Jeremiah 2:13
“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me,
The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns
That can hold no water.
Psalm 36:9
For with You is the fountain of life; in Your light we see light.
John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
John 4:14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” .”..... AMEN !!
John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Jeremiah 17:13
O LORD, the hope of Israel,
All who forsake You will be put to shame.
Those who turn away on earth will be written down,
Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD.
"Christ has glories far greater and grander than orthodoxy ever dreamed, yet they are due to His subjection to the will of His God and Father...Having been an honest and conscientious, but unintelligent, defender of the "fundamental" doctrine of the deity of Christ for many years myself, I can understand and sympathize with those who think it is taught in the Scriptures, and is absolutely essential to salvation. We imagined that the only alternative was to degrade Christ to a mere man, like ourselves. We reasoned that He must be Deity, or He could not do all that He did and will do. Therefore He must be equal to His Father . That our reasoning was illogical did not disturb us. But we did not believe His own words concerning Himself! We were so determined to honor Him that we denied the Scriptures which define His place as God's Anointed, the Mediator between God and man.
Had we been as logical as a child, we would never have fought for more than one God, or sought to coerce our minds by blurring the distinct idea of the Deity into a "Godhead with three Persons," a specious form of sophistry which is utterly unscriptural. God's spirit and His Anointed are closely associated with Him, and their relationship to each other is simple and clear in His revelation....
All of this evidence and reasoning should be unnecessary, since the apostle Paul has clearly and conclusively defined the relation between God and Christ. We need never descend to such futilities, for webelieve that "there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is,...and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is" (1 Cor.8:6).
A.E. Knoch
"For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..." (1 Timothy 2:5)
God bless.
Here is a better allusion:
Joh 3:1 But there was a man from the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews.
Joh 3:2 This one came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You have come as a teacher from God. For no one is able to do these miraculous signs which You do, except God be with Him.
To me,Jesus is the greatest Teacher and so much more. He is the exact image of God and represents the invisible God. He shows us who the Father, the invisible God is. He is the only begotten Son of God, the Only Way to the Father, the Truth and the Light, Our Savior, Redeemer, Our Deliverer, the Only Mediator between God and mankind, Our Redeemer and Healer, Our Lord and Master, and the Lamb that was slain. He is the Christ, the Annointed One, the True Vine, the Fountain of Life, the Bread that came out of heaven, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, the Word and the Wisdom of God and so much more. He deserves our worship and our very lives because He gave His life for us and He is our Lord. He has my worship and devotion and I hope to honor Him with my life. I don't believe a Trinity but I do believe in the One and Only True God who sent His Son to die for us all, to reconcile us to the One and Only True God, and I believe that He raised Jesus from the dead. I also believe that the whole creation will be restored to the Father through Him. God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-10-2012 at 05:05 PM..
Isa 49:26 “And I shall feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and let them drink their own blood as sweet wine. All flesh shall know that I, יהוה, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ.”
I will trust the promise of our Elohim. HE manifest HIMSELF as the Living Word and came to be with us to teach us the WAY to salvation. It is a CHOICE, not some free ride. I am not here to convince you folks to believe in anything other than the doctrine you've been fed all your lives, and continue to accept. I trust the Torah for the truth and that which is NOT confirmed in the Brit Chadesha (so called new testament) isn't truth but a distortion from the Greco Roman mistranslations from the apostles native tongues and upbringing.
Isa 49:26 “And I shall feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and let them drink their own blood as sweet wine. All flesh shall know that I, יהוה, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ.”
I will trust the promise of our Elohim. HE manifest HIMSELF as the Living Word and came to be with us to teach us the WAY to salvation. It is a CHOICE, not some free ride. I am not here to convince you folks to believe in anything other than the doctrine you've been fed all your lives, and continue to accept. I trust the Torah for the truth and that which is NOT confirmed in the Brit Chadesha (so called new testament) isn't truth but a distortion from the Greco Roman mistranslations from the apostles native tongues and upbringing.
‘God’ ‘manifested' or revealed himself through the Living Word. The Living Word was the total manifestation or revelation of ‘God’ to us. However the Living Word was not ‘God’ himself personally.
You are right . . . it is all "magicadoola midgicaboola bibbity bobbity boo" stuff with neither scientific nor philosophical merit. Hypostatic, hydrostatic, hypnogogic, or hypocritical . . . it is all just nonsense . . . as is kenosis, stenosis or hypnosis.
‘God’ ‘manifested' or revealed himself through the Living Word. The Living Word was the total manifestation or revelation of ‘God’ to us. However the Living Word was not ‘God’ himself personally.
That's simply not what the Bible reveals.... even in the OT God says he himself will be their Shepherd
“ ‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep.' ..You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.’ ” Ezekiel 34
And what does Jesus say of himself:
John 10:11
“Iamthegoodshepherd. Thegoodshepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:14
“Iamthegoodshepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
And what do people who (hate Jesus.. who hate the truth) do when Jesus claims that he is the Sovereign LORD ( capitol "LORD" in the OT is Jehovah)
the Jews picked up stones to stone him, “We are not stoning you for any of these," (refering to the miracles that Jesus did) replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”John 10:33
-----> “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus claimed to be God.... the Sovereign LORD
All anti-trinitarian messages are attempting to "throw stones" like the equilivent of the Jews wanting to stone Jesus,...
because Jesus claimed to be God.
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