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Old 02-10-2012, 05:13 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
And it's ok that you believe that. That is your prerogative. Man is fallible, and definitely have their own agendas. It's my prerogative to believe that, and to ask questions.

You go ahead and keep turning your blind eye. I'll go ahead and keep asking questions.
Yes man is fallible, but God is not. I'll keep my eyes turned on Him, hope you do too.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:34 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All of the New Testament is Scripture, just as all the Old Testament is Scripture. Peter was indeed comparing Paul's letters to the Old Testament Scriptures. The New Testament Scriptures were communicated by the Holy Spirit to the human writers who recorded in their own vocabulary and literary style all that the Holy Spirit communicated to them. As Jesus said in John 16:12, ''I have many more things to say to you, but you can not bear them now, 13] ''But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] ''He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 15] ''All things that the Father has are Mine; and I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

The New Testament books are the fulfillment of this teaching ministry of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit taught the apostles those things which Jesus had said earlier that He had to say to them but could not at that time.

Peter said that the writings of Paul contain things that are hard to understand, and which the untaught and unstable distort as they do the rest of the Scriptures. Peter put what Paul wrote on a par with the rest of the Scriptures. Paul's letters contain the advanced doctrines which pertain to the church. To deny them as Scripture is foolish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
~ No one wrote in their 'epistles' 'letters'
of the new "Testament" AS Scriptures
AS we refer to them AS.

~ Paul spoke much on his own authority.

Read the 2nd epistle of Peter he spoke of 'THINGS' which was common knowledge to The Apostles of 'Scripture'. The Coming 0f The Lord.
The Day 0f The Lord.
Paul wrote "IN" "his epistles' of "These Things" which being hard to understand the unstable & the unstable twist to their destruction.

Understand what Peter was talking about in his epistle.
And you'll see he was not saying Paul Wrote Scripture.

Peter was saying Paul wrote "IN" 'his epistle' of "These Things"
which was of Scriptures of "The Day 0f The Lord" - Ps.102:25,26
Your argument --> 'No one wrote in their 'epistles' 'letters'
of the new "Testament" AS Scriptures,'
is invalid.

The fact that Pauls letters were divinely inspired - God breathed, makes them Scripture. Refer to the top of this post regarding my comment concerning John 16:12


This is very simple to understand. As I said, Peter was referring to Paul's writings in which there are some things are hard to understand which the unlearned and the unstable distort as they do the rest of the Scriptures. Paul's letters were being compared to the rest of the Scriptures.

The fact that Peter referred to Paul's letters and then referred to the other Scriptures shows that Paul's letters were recognized as Scripture.

Paul urged an exchange of epistles. Once the Colossians read his letter to them he wanted them to send it to Laodicea. Col 4:16 'And when this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea.

As well, Paul wanted his letter to the Thessalonians read to all the brethren. 1 Thess 5:27 'I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren.'

In 2 Thess 3:14 Paul stated that if anyone did not obey his instructions in that letter they should not be associated with. If his letter was not Scripture, then Paul would have been unwarranted in making that demand. But Paul's letters are Scripture.

Here is an Excerpt from Barnes' Notes on the Bible on 2 Peter 3:16.

As they do also the other scriptures - This is an unequivocal declaration of Peter that he regarded the writings of Paul as a part of the holy Scriptures, and of course that he considered him as inspired. The word "Scriptures," as used by a Jew, had a technical signification - meaning the inspired writings, and was the common word which was applied to the sacred writings of the Old Testament. As Peter uses this language, it implies that he regarded the writings of Paul as on a level with the Old Testament; and as far as the testimony of one apostle can go to confirm the claim of another to inspiration, it proves that the writings of Paul are entitled to a place in the sacred canon. It should be remarked, also, that Peter evidently speaks here of the common estimate in which the writings of Paul were held. He addresses those to whom he wrote, not in such a way as to declare to them that the writings of Paul were to be regarded as a part of the inspired volume, but as if this were already known, and were an admitted point.
2 Peter 3 Barnes' Notes on the Bible

And from Wesley's Notes:

3:16 As also in all his epistles - St. Peter wrote this a little before his own and St. Paul's martyrdom. St. Paul therefore had now written all his epistles; and even from this expression we may learn that St. Peter had read them all, perhaps sent to him by St. Paul himself. Nor was he at all disgusted by what St. Paul had written concerning him in the Epistle to the Galatians. Speaking of these things - Namely, of the coming of our Lord, delayed through his longsuffering, and of the circumstances preceding and accompanying it. Which things the unlearned - They who are not taught of God. And the unstable - Wavering, double - minded, unsettled men. Wrest - As though Christ would not come. As they do also the other scriptures - Therefore St Paul's writings were now part of the scriptures. To their own destruction - But that some use the scriptures ill, is no reason why others should not use them at all.
2 Peter 3:16 Bible Commentary




Now I understand that Peter was placing Paul's letters on a par with all other existing Scriptures, and most theologians and most commentators understand that Peter was comparing Paul's letters to the other Scriptures. The question is, how is it that you don't understand that?


Additionally the Book of Revelation, written by John contains a warning not to add or take away from it (Rev 22:18) showing it to be Scripture.

It's incredible that anyone who claims to be a believer can deny that any of the books of the Bible, whether Old or New Testament, are Scripture.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:01 PM
 
Location: God's Country
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

It's incredible that anyone who claims to be a believer can deny that any of the books of the Bible, whether Old or New Testament, are Scripture.
I agree Mike. I don't understand how anyone can claim to know God and reject His Word.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:13 PM
 
2,981 posts, read 2,914,885 times
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I rest my case on this:

- 32 times in The New Testament the word "Scripture" is spoken of.

How many of these times was this word 'Scripture' used
to describe what they were referring to as written
in The Old Testament as 'Scripture' ?

OR, how many of these times was this word 'Scripture' used to describe themselves writing 'Scripture' in The New Testament?

- 21 times in The New Testament the word "Scriptures" is spoken of.

How many of these times was the word "Scriptures" used
to describe what they were referring to as written
in The Old Testament as "Scriptures" ?

OR, how many of these times was the word "Scriptures" used to
describe themselves writing "Scriptures" in The New Testament ?


~ Surely out of 53 times inwhich they referred to The Scriptures?
There would have been one other time of them claiming to write Scriptures themselves.

Other than this one time to which is preceived
of Peter referring to Paul's letters AS Scripture?

Wouldn't There?
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:10 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,143,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
I rest my case on this:

- 32 times in The New Testament the word "Scripture" is spoken of.

How many of these times was this word 'Scripture' used
to describe what they were referring to as written
in The Old Testament as 'Scripture' ?

OR, how many of these times was this word 'Scripture' used to describe themselves writing 'Scripture' in The New Testament?

- 21 times in The New Testament the word "Scriptures" is spoken of.

How many of these times was the word "Scriptures" used
to describe what they were referring to as written
in The Old Testament as "Scriptures" ?

OR, how many of these times was the word "Scriptures" used to
describe themselves writing "Scriptures" in The New Testament ?


~ Surely out of 53 times inwhich they referred to The Scriptures?
There would have been one other time of them claiming to write Scriptures themselves.

Other than this one time to which is preceived
of Peter referring to Paul's letters AS Scripture?

Wouldn't There?
graphḗ - Scripture means 'writings.' And the New Testament generally uses the term for the Old Testament Scriptures.

2 Tim 3:16 says 'All Scripture is inspired (Theophneustos - God breathed) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Do you understand that the New Testament is the fulfillment of John 16:12? Jesus said in John 16:12, ''I have many more things to say to you, but you can not bear them now, 13] ''But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] ''He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 15] ''All things that the Father has are Mine; and I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

The New Testament books are the fulfillment of this teaching ministry of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit taught the apostles those things which Jesus had said earlier that He had to say to them but could not at that time. The New Testament contains those things which Jesus could not beforehand communicate to the apostles because they were not able to bear it until later. What God communicated to the apostles and was set down in writing is Scripture whether or not the human writers of the New Testament applied the word 'Scripture' to their writings. They knew that what they wrote was from God and therefore it was Scripture.



As Jesus said in John 16:12, ''I have many more things to say to you, but you can not bear them now, 13] ''But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] ''He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 15] ''All things that the Father has are Mine; and I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

The New Testament books are the fulfillment of this teaching ministry of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit taught the apostles those things which Jesus had said earlier that He had to say to them but could not at that time.

The New Testament is every bit as inspired by the Holy Spirit as the Old Testament is.

And again, Peter compared Paul's writings with the other (the rest of) the Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16). Which means that Peter placed Paul's epistles on the same level as the Old Testament Scriptures.

I hope that you can understand this.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:14 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,143,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I agree Mike. I don't understand how anyone can claim to know God and reject His Word.
And indeed ILNC, no one who rejects His word does or can know God. Such people are deceiving themselves.
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Old 02-10-2012, 10:56 PM
 
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How can John 16:13-15 Be Consistant
TO EVERY Word Written By The Apostles?

They wrote "IN" their "letters" of such declairations of Christ.
But, not Ever Word They Wrote
was from The Holy Spirit declairing the things of Christ from "The Father".

Are we not Writing letters to the church of The Holy Spirit Guiding us?
Do we not Write of what The Holy Spirit Speaks of such things of Christ?

The Holy Spirit Speaks.
Apostles don't speak for Him.

The Holy Spirit speaks and leads us into all truth.
The Apostles didn't have "ALL Truth".

Paul didn't know it all.
Paul didn't know about the timing of two different Resurrections.
As did John in The Revelation 0f Jesus Christ.

They believed and taught Jesus was coming back in their day for them.
Did they not hear from The Holy Spirit? Wasn't their writtings inerrantly infallible? Oh please grow up...
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:31 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,143,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
How can John 16:13-15 Be Consistant
TO EVERY Word Written By The Apostles?

They wrote "IN" their "letters" of such declairations of Christ.
But, not Ever Word They Wrote
was from The Holy Spirit declairing the things of Christ from "The Father".
To the contrary!!!

Jesus said in John 16:12, ''I have many more things to say to you, but you can not bear them now, 13] ''But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14] ''He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 15] ''All things that the Father has are Mine; and I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.

Jesus plainly stated that the Holy Spirit would disclose to the apostles those things that He heard from the Father and that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all the truth.

You are in direct contradiction of what Jesus said.

Quote:
Are we not Writing letters to the church of The Holy Spirit Guiding us?
Do we not Write of what The Holy Spirit Speaks of such things of Christ?

The Holy Spirit Speaks.
Apostles don't speak for Him.

The Holy Spirit speaks and leads us into all truth.
The Apostles didn't have "ALL Truth".

Paul didn't know it all.
Paul didn't know about the timing of two different Resurrections.
As did John in The Revelation 0f Jesus Christ.

They believed and taught Jesus was coming back in their day for them.
Did they not hear from The Holy Spirit? Wasn't their writtings inerrantly infallible? Oh please grow up...
Neither did the prophets in the Old Testament know everything. They didn't know that there would be a dispensation called the church. It had not been revealed to them. Are you now going to deny that the Old Testament is Scripture because God kept the dispensation of the Church hidden from them?

Again, the Holy Spirit communicated to the apostles all that God chose to reveal and have recorded in the New Testament. The Holy Spirit is the divine author of the New Testament. The apostles as well as Luke and Mark were the human writers of the Scripture.

You are deliberately rejecting what the Scriptures say. And it appears that you will continue to do so. For that reason, it is pointless to waste time trying to educate you.
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Old 02-10-2012, 11:45 PM
 
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That's right you get it.
Then how could everything they write be Inerrant and infallible?

The belief of Absolute inerrancy and infalliblity of all scripture to be The Word 0f God. Is not the quote of any Scripture.

It is a 'false doctrine' which has controlled and corraled His sheep for the profit of shepherds. For us to obey them by any verse they deem of proper usage.

This false doctrine contradicts it's self.
Keeping God's people going in circles.
Pastors 0f Paul don't care
as long as we keep treading out the grain, for them!

Last edited by RevelationWriter; 02-10-2012 at 11:54 PM..
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,916 posts, read 26,143,925 times
Reputation: 16072
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter View Post
That's right you get it.
Then how could everything they write be Inerrant and infallible?

The belief of Absolute inerrancy and infalliblity of all scripture to be The Word 0f God. Is not the quote of any Scripture.

It is a 'false doctrine' which has controlled and corraled His sheep for the profit of shepherds. For us to obey them by any verse they deem of proper usage.

This false doctrine contradicts it's self.
Keeping God's people going in circles.
Pastors 0f Paul don't care
as long as we keep treading out the grain, for them!
You are in serious error and rejection of the truth.

The Bible is the Word of God and is absolutely Inerrant.

Everything that God chose to reveal to the human authors of the Bible was recorded by them with perfect accuracy.

The Scriptures are not human viewpoint, but are the Holy Spirit's use of human agencies and lanquage.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Tim 3:16 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

The principle of Inspiration means that the Scriptures are 'God - breathed' -Theopneustos. It involves both inhale and exhale. In the inhale, the Holy Spirit communicated to the human authors of the Bible. In the exhale, the writers, using their own vocabulary and literary style permanently recorded with perfect accuracy God's complete message to man.

The Bible is therefore the perfect divine norm and standard.

And none of the variations among the manuscript copies, and none of the inclusions or exclusions in certain manuscript copies have caused any doctrine or any of the message that was in the original autographs to be lost.

I feel sorry for those who, claiming to be believers, cannot understand this.
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