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Old 02-07-2012, 03:03 PM
 
698 posts, read 644,889 times
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Quote:
The law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient.
The law is not "abolished" or "done away" for those people.
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:16 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,434,921 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Hi twin, have you even looked at the context in which my statements are made? ie: the entire dialogue between Mike555 and I on this thread? Just wondering, because from your commentary above, it doesn't seem like you read more than this one post of mine. You've also quote-mined my comments unfairly, making my post seem highly defamatory. I will let that go but please read our entire exchange if you haven't done so. You will find that many of the things you wish to discuss about my statements become clearer then.
Steph,
I have read most of both have written... which why on the one hand I disagreed with the reformed positions of certian teachings yet still can say that many of the points Mike makes is correct. But our differences are such that neither one would go as far as saying "obvious lies".

Same can be said when you said "The Bible doesn't say that those who are saved will endure to the end. It says those who endure to the end will be saved."

Generally speaking that is correct. unless.....

If we are talking about the predestined ... then Bible says in fact that we( the saved) will endure to the end.

But if we're speaking about the warning from Jesus about a person who forfeits his faith thus consequently damned, then what you stated is correct:
"It says those who endure to the end will be saved."
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
27,914 posts, read 29,747,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
For those of you who are trying to earn eternal salvation by keeping the Law. No one is or can be saved by trying to keep the Law.
I can go along with that. On the other hand, I don't believe anybody can be saved by willfully ignoring God's commandments either, and assuming that as long as he believes in Christ, that's all that matters. As C.S. Lewis said, "Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important."
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Old 02-07-2012, 03:38 PM
 
661 posts, read 619,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Steph,
I have read most of both have written... which why on the one hand I disagreed with the reformed positions of certian teachings yet still can say that many of the points Mike makes is correct. But our differences are such that neither one would go as far as saying "obvious lies".

Same can be said when you said "The Bible doesn't say that those who are saved will endure to the end. It says those who endure to the end will be saved."

Generally speaking that is correct. unless.....

If we are talking about the predestined ... then Bible says in fact that we( the saved) will endure to the end.

But if we're speaking about the warning from Jesus about a person who forfeits his faith thus consequently damned, then what you stated is correct:
"It says those who endure to the end will be saved."
You are right, maybe I should not have called the lies "obvious". If a lot of truth is mixed with a deadly error and produces a dangerous, false conclusion, shouldn't the error be called a lie? I wouldn't call all erroneous doctrine "lies" (and I certainly make no claim to having perfect theology). But let me ask you this.... which doctrines do we think the devil wants to tamper with most? He isn't the father of "misguided thinking", but of lies. He wants people thinking they are saved when they are not. It is not Mike I am taking aim at.... by no means!

All these differences in doctrine, etc.... Most of them don't have a purely human origin. We need to be wise and discerning.

Titus 2 and 2 Timothy both talk at length about teaching doctrine that accords with godliness. If our doctrine does not lead to godly living, then we need to look at that doctrine and we simply have to ask ourselves if it is true. If godliness is an optional extra, if our doctrine isn't practical and resulting in holy living.... we have to ask ourselves if we have seriously missed it.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:06 PM
 
63,470 posts, read 39,739,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Titus 2 and 2 Timothy both talk at length about teaching doctrine that accords with godliness. If our doctrine does not lead to godly living, then we need to look at that doctrine and we simply have to ask ourselves if it is true. If godliness is an optional extra, if our doctrine isn't practical and resulting in holy living.... we have to ask ourselves if we have seriously missed it.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:39 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
Reputation: 16099
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Thanks Mike.

What groups of the Parable of the Sowers would you say are saved? Would you say the people outside the Kingdom of God (Matt 7) are
saved?

Lee, concerning the Parable of the Sower, many people don't properly understand it. Of the four groups mentioned, only those in the first are unsaved. Those in this group hear the gospel but do not understand it, and do not believe it. Therefore those in this group remained unsaved.

The Second group - the rocky soil, hear the gospel and receive it with joy. They believe it and are saved. But when faced with persecution they don't take a stand. They stumble. That does not mean they lose their eternal salvation, but only that they are weak believers and have no fruit to show.

The third group are eternally saved, but they give preoccupied with the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the pleasures of life and produce little or no fruit.

The forth group of course is eternally saved. Those in this group give their spiritual life top priority and produce much fruit.

Remember that in 1 Cor 3:15 Paul states that 'If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire'.


Regarding those in Matthew 7, the false prophets. No they aren't saved. Jesus was referring to the Pharisees and what He was saying was that despite the fact that outwardly they seemed to be good men who were teaching spiritual truths, they were in fact ravenous wolfs leading others astray. Their fruit, which was bad fruit, was their false teaching. And even though they might have been prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons and performing miracles (apparently good works), nevertheless Jesus will say to them at the judgment that He never knew them. They had never believed in Him.
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Old 02-07-2012, 05:46 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,941 posts, read 26,170,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Gang let's not stir up the Heresy finger pointing which shuts down discussion but stirs up flesh, thorn-producing strifeful "works". Let's keep it in the Spirit.

Mike use your knowledge of Exegesis of the scriptures and respond to my post. No need to use verbal declarations. Use Scripture. Let's get down to the meat and potatoes.

Break out the Bible, Lexicon, whatever and let's stop screwing around.
Lee, heresy and false teaching is to be exposed and called what it is. And that is in the Spirit. My purpose in my original post was to refute the false gospel of works based salvation which includes trying to keep the Law.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:07 PM
 
661 posts, read 619,135 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Lee, concerning the Parable of the Sower, many people don't properly understand it. Of the four groups mentioned, only those in the first are unsaved. Those in this group hear the gospel but do not understand it, and do not believe it. Therefore those in this group remained unsaved.

The Second group - the rocky soil, hear the gospel and receive it with joy. They believe it and are saved. But when faced with persecution they don't take a stand. They stumble. That does not mean they lose their eternal salvation, but only that they are weak believers and have no fruit to show.

The third group are eternally saved, but they give preoccupied with the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the pleasures of life and produce little or no fruit.

The forth group of course is eternally saved. Those in this group give their spiritual life top priority and produce much fruit.

Remember that in 1 Cor 3:15 Paul states that 'If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire'.


Regarding those in Matthew 7, the false prophets. No they aren't saved. Jesus was referring to the Pharisees and what He was saying was that despite the fact that outwardly they seemed to be good men who were teaching spiritual truths, they were in fact ravenous wolfs leading others astray. Their fruit, which was bad fruit, was their false teaching. And even though they might have been prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons and performing miracles (apparently good works), nevertheless Jesus will say to them at the judgment that He never knew them. They had never believed in Him.
Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.b As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

The first question here is:

- Is "hearing/receiving the word" the equivalent of being saved?

or

- Is "hearing/receiving/understanding the word and bearing fruit" the equivalent of being saved?

The second question is:

- Does Jesus have 3 different types of followers, and is there only 1 type of unsaved person?

or

- Does Jesus have only 1 type of follower, and are there various reasons (3) that people fail to be saved?

The way I understand it, all we really need to do to understand what the answers to these questions are is to look at what Jesus taught elsewhere.

(If everyone agrees that the rocky soil represents unbelievers, and that the good soil yielding a crop represents believers, those can be left out for now)

So the second type of person: the person who hears and receives the word and then falls away during time of persecution/tribulation. What does Jesus say about this elsewhere?

Jesus says "you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake... And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved." Matthew 24:8ff. Also, He says: "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels." Luke 9:23ff

Then the third type of person: the person who hears the word but it is choked because of the deceitfulness of riches and the cares of the world. What does Jesus say about this elsewhere?

Jesus says "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’... So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple." and also "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God" Luke 9:62

Now we can more accurately see how Jesus was delineating people who would hear the word.

Of course, if you believe that Jesus isn't talking about salvation when He says things about being His disciple, being fit for the kingdom of God, etc, or if you believe that Jesus wasn't addressing everyone, then you've created a little loophole for yourself which allows you to interpret the parable completely differently.

This is how I read the parable of the sower.
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:43 PM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,603,626 times
Reputation: 3769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Lee, concerning the Parable of the Sower, many people don't properly understand it. Of the four groups mentioned, only those in the first are unsaved. Those in this group hear the gospel but do not understand it, and do not believe it. Therefore those in this group remained unsaved.

The Second group - the rocky soil, hear the gospel and receive it with joy. They believe it and are saved. But when faced with persecution they don't take a stand. They stumble. That does not mean they lose their eternal salvation, but only that they are weak believers and have no fruit to show.

The third group are eternally saved, but they give preoccupied with the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the pleasures of life and produce little or no fruit.

The forth group of course is eternally saved. Those in this group give their spiritual life top priority and produce much fruit.

Remember that in 1 Cor 3:15 Paul states that 'If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire'.

Regarding those in Matthew 7, the false prophets. No they aren't saved. Jesus was referring to the Pharisees and what He was saying was that despite the fact that outwardly they seemed to be good men who were teaching spiritual truths, they were in fact ravenous wolfs leading others astray. Their fruit, which was bad fruit, was their false teaching. And even though they might have been prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons and performing miracles (apparently good works), nevertheless Jesus will say to them at the judgment that He never knew them. They had never believed in Him.
Interesting take on the Parable of Sowers. I tried to reconcile the first group as being sealed in my studies but couldn't (lest they be converted etc)

Regarding Matthew 7, it seems like in reference to false prophets, he's talking about their works. He goes on which the logic that man doesn't pick thorns (symbolizing God doesn't pick them either with the same logic)

He says we can identify Chrisians by their fruits. Read "Works". We can't tell whether or not someone is born-again, but we can see their fruits to get an idea.

Matthew 7

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


So God identifies Christians by their fruits right?

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


I find it interesting it says "cast out devils". As you recall, the Pharisees attributed his casting out demons in through Beelzebub (the unforgivable sin). So if these people were casting out devils, than they must have had the Holy Spirit to do it no? Then the Lord gives us the remedy to avoid this - doing the words we hear with a relationship not practicing iniquity.

Not doing the words we hear, not having a relationship, and practicing iniquity evidently = not entering the Kingdom of Heaven. No?

It should be noted that Matthew 5,6,7 wasn't spoken to the "multitudes" (meaning Pharisee) but his disciples.

Matthew 5
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

His sermon was to his disciples.

It's interesting it appears the same event is recalled in the Gospel of Luke but expressed a little differently. It might not be a different event entirely.

Luke 13:23-27

23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Strive - Strong's G75 - agōnizomai
1) to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games
2) to contend with adversaries, fight
3) metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers
4) to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


This passage suggests a struggle/ to contend with adversaries/ a fight is associated with entering the Kingdom. But maybe it's associated with Rewards in the Kingdom. Like someone asking what it takes to pass the course, but the teacher responding in the attitude one needs to get a 100%. The Lord's response; however, is in response to someone asking if many are Saved.



After the Hall of faith chapter (Hebrews 11)


Hebrews 12

1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:


Striving - Strong's G464 - antagōnizomai

1) to struggle, fight
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

So I'm not completely convinced that repenting/believing/obeying/trusting aren't all in the same category in which obedience to the faith is not a requirement. But I'm still checking it out.

The concern I have is regarding Repenting. It doesn't seem to get enough respect sometimes. Repenting was the first thing coming out of the mouth of the Lord when he started his ministry. True repentance involves a transformation producing fruit. That's what it's all about.

The Lord wants fruit.
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Old 02-07-2012, 08:25 PM
 
661 posts, read 619,135 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
Interesting take on the Parable of Sowers. I tried to reconcile the first group as being sealed in my studies but couldn't (lest they be converted etc)

Regarding Matthew 7, it seems like in reference to false prophets, he's talking about their works. He goes on which the logic that man doesn't pick thorns (symbolizing God doesn't pick them either with the same logic)

He says we can identify Chrisians by their fruits. Read "Works". We can't tell whether or not someone is born-again, but we can see their fruits to get an idea.

Matthew 7

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So God identifies Christians by their fruits right?

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

I find it interesting it says "cast out devils". As you recall, the Pharisees attributed his casting out demons in through Beelzebub (the unforgivable sin). So if these people were casting out devils, than they must have had the Holy Spirit to do it no? Then the Lord gives us the remedy to avoid this - doing the words we hear with a relationship not practicing iniquity.

Not doing the words we hear, not having a relationship, and practicing iniquity evidently = not entering the Kingdom of Heaven. No?

It should be noted that Matthew 5,6,7 wasn't spoken to the "multitudes" (meaning Pharisee) but his disciples.

Matthew 5
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

His sermon was to his disciples.

It's interesting it appears the same event is recalled in the Gospel of Luke but expressed a little differently. It might not be a different event entirely.

Luke 13:23-27

23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Strive - Strong's G75 - agōnizomai
1) to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games
2) to contend with adversaries, fight
3) metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers
4) to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon


This passage suggests a struggle/ to contend with adversaries/ a fight is associated with entering the Kingdom. But maybe it's associated with Rewards in the Kingdom. Like someone asking what it takes to pass the course, but the teacher responding in the attitude one needs to get a 100%. The Lord's response; however, is in response to someone asking if many are Saved.



After the Hall of faith chapter (Hebrews 11)


Hebrews 12

1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:


Striving - Strong's G464 - antagōnizomai

1) to struggle, fight
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

So I'm not completely convinced that repenting/believing/obeying/trusting aren't all in the same category in which obedience to the faith is not a requirement. But I'm still checking it out.

The concern I have is regarding Repenting. It doesn't seem to get enough respect sometimes. Repenting was the first thing coming out of the mouth of the Lord when he started his ministry. True repentance involves a transformation producing fruit. That's what it's all about.

The Lord wants fruit.
Praise the Lord.
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