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Old 02-06-2012, 08:56 PM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,596,252 times
Reputation: 3769

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These debates can always be reduced down to... What happens to the carnal, thorn-bearing, no sign of fruit bearing Christian? I've found it kind of goes like..

The opponents of Saved by Faith and nothing else say.. Whoa Sinful Christians think they're saved while promoting willful sin.

The opponents of Saved by Faith and Works say.. Whoa Legalistic Christians think they're saved by "Keeping the Law" and sinless behavior.



Abraham justified by faith by believing God. (Romans 4) Abraham justified by faith in Works by sacrificing Isaac.(James 2) So what would have happened if Abraham didn't offer Isaac?

That's really what we're talking about.

It is interesting that if all are saved as Abraham was, there was no Mosaic law. The "Work" that he was doing was an action reflecting his faith in God. God told him to do it, and despite what it looked like, Abraham raised the knife on his Son. A good case could be made that he specifically had faith in the resurrection because he knew the character of God and that he gave an unconditional promise that in Issac Abraham's seed would be called. Abraham in faith offered his son in obedience trusting in God to deliver.

The Law issue is real important because it is obviously confusing many. Abraham didn't have a Law, but the covenant of Circumcision. With Moses came the Mosaic Law. With the Lord Messiah Jesus, came the Law of Christ which supersedes the Mosaic Law which was fulfilled in Christ. The Holy Spirit through Paul calls the Mosaic Law a curse.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So we are clearly redeemed from the Mosaic Law by coming to Christ. But if all are saved as Abraham was by Faith, what about the Law of Christ?

Abraham demonstrated his faith by obedience to the faith. He demonstrated his faith through following on the ordinance of circumcision. He didn't rebel and didn't do it. He obeyed from the Heart. Abraham didn't have any written Law, but we are under Christ's Law. So how does this apply to us?

Just like Abraham, we are to demonstrate our faith by obedience to the faith. We are to demonstrate our faith by obedience to the faith under the Law of Christ. We are justified by faith which demonstrates itself by obedience to the Law of Christ. We aren't saved by "Keeping the Law of Christ". We are saved by faith in obedience to the Law of Christ. Through faith the Spirit is released to us to produce Spirit-led Works.

God wants fruit. As Romans 9 points out, the Jews stumbled at not receiving the Righteousness of God by faith. So they stumbled at that stumbling stone. All that stumble on it are ground to power the Scriptures say. So we don't want to Stumble on that stumbling stone!!!

Romans 9

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Works of Faith. That's the type of Works James was talking about (James 2). Charity/Works of Faith. (Not works of the Mosaic Law) God wants us to show Charity in the Law of Christ.

We as Christians are to produce fruit empowered by the Spirit. What if a person says they are a Christian and lives a life in willful rebellion? Well Abraham didn't Rebel so we don't have an example.

We do know that Nimrod's name means "We rebel". So rebelling is a Bad idea and there is no evidence one living in such a manner has the seal of God's Spirit. Both Paul and the Lord say a Christian is "Born Again" in which the Comforter will be with us "forever" (the Lord says).

Can a born-again sealed supernaturally "forever" in a state which they didn't deserve in the first place become unsealed by disobedience?

Can we just Trust God in his Promises? Or are we to worry that maybe we didn't produce fruit in an event we happen to see that guillotine blade coming down?

Graphic but it gets across the point.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:59 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,112,025 times
Reputation: 16012
[quote=steph1980;22874572]

Quote:
originally posted by mike555
and quite simply, many believers just aren't interested in making the effort that spiritual growth requires.
Quote:
hmmmm... And why do you think that is?

They are being told that being a disciple of jesus is not actually necessary.
Various reasons. My own mother once said 'just as long as I make it to heaven.' She didn't appreciate the issue of the eternal rewards which she would miss out on by not caring about advancing in the spiritual life.

For many believers, the things of this life are of more concern to them than the things that the eternal future brings.

Many believers are never taught the matter of eternal rewards. All they know about is going to heaven.

The believer is left here on earth after salvation for the purpose of growing up spiritually so that he can have all that God desires to give Him, both in time and in the eternal future.

But this is not really the topic of this thread.
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
595 posts, read 758,036 times
Reputation: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
The JUST shall live by their FAITH - not the UNJUST. Just means righteous - look it up.


No one can be justified by keeping the law - we are justified by faith - BUT who is it that has the faith that justifies???.....

>>>Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Only those who obey have the faith that justifies!


Go here:

//www.city-data.com/forum/chris...hed-blood.html

...and read my replies....that'll save a lot of typing.

God Bless,
Verna.
Yes, having faith, believing, trusting in Christ Jesus to do HIS righteousness in us. To pray and petition to the Father on every aspect of His righteousness working in us. Jesus made the way for us to boldy go to the Father in His wonderful, glorious name, JESUS! And expect His will to be completed in us. By His power and authority.
Obedience builds our faith and gives us the secret knowledge of Christ's righteousness, leading to holiness.

Faith without deeds is worthless.--Noah, a preacher of righteousness, he believed and obeyed. Faith and deeds walk hand in hand, Christ believed and obeyed. Not saying it is easy, God knows it is not, however even David in his sin would rather commit himself to the hands of God than the hands of men.

God Bless,
Mercy
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:07 PM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,596,252 times
Reputation: 3769
[quote=Mike555;22875071]
Quote:
Originally Posted by steph1980 View Post
Various reasons. My own mother once said 'just as long as I make it to heaven.' She didn't appreciate the issue of the eternal rewards which she would miss out on by not caring about advancing in the spiritual life.

For many believers, the things of this life are of more concern to them than the things that the eternal future brings.

Many believers are never taught the matter of eternal rewards. All they know about is going to heaven.

The believer is left here on earth after salvation for the purpose of growing up spiritually so that he can have all that God desires to give Him, both in time and in the eternal future.

But this is not really the topic of this thread.
So true. Perspective is the Christian's greatest friend. When you can look at the Messianic age and see the Hope there, you don't worry so much about the foolishness and empty cares of this world.
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:08 PM
 
661 posts, read 617,864 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All you are saying is that you have rejected sound doctrine and drifted into error. This is common.
Mike, we have gone back and forth about theology. I am holding fast and am not moved. Let me share something personal with you, to give you a more personal picture of where I am coming from... I don't want you to take for granted that this has been and continues to be a very personal and real journey for me:

If I drifted into "error" it is not because I read a couple of books or articles and decided to abandon all my good systematic theology. I have spent many nights and days crying and praying. Do you know how much easier it would be for me to abandon what I have learned, and go back to what was very comfortable, and (as my husband calls it) less "divisive"? Do you have any idea of the tension it has brought to my home life? Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have become an intercessor because of this, great zeal for God's true church has literally overtaken me, and I am learning to entrust myself to Him who judges justly, and to win my husband without a word. I am not suggesting that my familiy doesn't actually know the Lord. My point is that I am learning how to behave, and what God is asking of me... humility, grace, love, patience. On this forum I can express what I am learning boldly, but here in my daily life, I am learning restraint and humility and deep prayer. It is a very hard thing to go through, but being a disciple of Jesus is incredibly difficult.... until you get over it, and really give yourself to Him. Then, it is incredibly easy because you don't mind losing your life, whatever that entails
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:22 PM
 
6,822 posts, read 6,596,252 times
Reputation: 3769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Mike, we have gone back and forth about theology. I am holding fast and am not moved. Let me share something personal with you, to give you a more personal picture of where I am coming from... I don't want you to take for granted that this has been and continues to be a very personal and real journey for me:

If I drifted into "error" it is not because I read a couple of books or articles and decided to abandon all my good systematic theology. I have spent many nights and days crying and praying. Do you know how much easier it would be for me to abandon what I have learned, and go back to what was very comfortable, and (as my husband calls it) less "divisive"? Do you have any idea of the tension it has brought to my home life? Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have become an intercessor because of this, great zeal for God's true church has literally overtaken me, and I am learning to entrust myself to Him who judges justly, and to win my husband without a word. I am not suggesting that my familiy doesn't actually know the Lord. My point is that I am learning how to behave, and what God is asking of me... humility, grace, love, patience. On this forum I can express what I am learning boldly, but here in my daily life, I am learning restraint and humility and deep prayer. It is a very hard thing to go through, but being a disciple of Jesus is incredibly difficult.... until you get over it, and really give yourself to Him. Then, it is incredibly easy because you don't mind losing your life, whatever that entails
Steph I think it's great that this is a good discussion over this central important issue of soteriology. Christ transforms lives. We are called to be Witnesses (noun), edify the body, and to give a reason for all to why we have the hope that's within us. Part of this answer is "what does someone have to do to get saved". Very important for us to have this down real good.

I am in a similar situation. Many of my family seems very lost around me, and it breaks me in two. Some are responding. Others don't want to know. Some ignore the warnings (pretending they don't hear I guess.) They just have no idea.

The Christian's greatest Witness is our Walk. God bless you and I'm prayin for ya.
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:26 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,112,025 times
Reputation: 16012
Quote:
Originally Posted by lee9786 View Post
These debates can always be reduced down to... What happens to the carnal, thorn-bearing, no sign of fruit bearing Christian? I've found it kind of goes like..

The opponents of Saved by Faith and nothing else say.. Whoa Sinful Christians think they're saved while promoting willful sin.

The opponents of Saved by Faith and Works say.. Whoa Legalistic Christians think they're saved by "Keeping the Law" and sinless behavior.



Abraham justified by faith by believing God. (Romans 4) Abraham justified by faith in Works by sacrificing Isaac.(James 2) So what would have happened if Abraham didn't offer Isaac?

That's really what we're talking about.

It is interesting that if all are saved as Abraham was, there was no Mosaic law. The "Work" that he was doing was an action reflecting his faith in God. God told him to do it, and despite what it looked like, Abraham raised the knife on his Son. A good case could be made that he specifically had faith in the resurrection because he knew the character of God and that he gave an unconditional promise that in Issac Abraham's seed would be called. Abraham in faith offered his son in obedience trusting in God to deliver.

The Law issue is real important because it is obviously confusing many. Abraham didn't have a Law, but the covenant of Circumcision. With Moses came the Mosaic Law. With the Lord Messiah Jesus, came the Law of Christ which supersedes the Mosaic Law which was fulfilled in Christ. The Holy Spirit through Paul calls the Mosaic Law a curse.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So we are clearly redeemed from the Mosaic Law by coming to Christ. But if all are saved as Abraham was by Faith, what about the Law of Christ?

Abraham demonstrated his faith by obedience to the faith. He demonstrated his faith through following on the ordinance of circumcision. He didn't rebel and didn't do it. He obeyed from the Heart. Abraham didn't have any written Law, but we are under Christ's Law. So how does this apply to us?

Just like Abraham, we are to demonstrate our faith by obedience to the faith. We are to demonstrate our faith by obedience to the faith under the Law of Christ. We are justified by faith which demonstrates itself by obedience to the Law of Christ. We aren't saved by "Keeping the Law of Christ". We are saved by faith in obedience to the Law of Christ. Through faith the Spirit is released to us to produce Spirit-led Works.

God wants fruit. As Romans 9 points out, the Jews stumbled at not receiving the Righteousness of God by faith. So they stumbled at that stumbling stone. All that stumble on it are ground to power the Scriptures say. So we don't want to Stumble on that stumbling stone!!!

Romans 9

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Works of Faith. That's the type of Works James was talking about (James 2). Charity/Works of Faith. (Not works of the Mosaic Law) God wants us to show Charity in the Law of Christ.

We as Christians are to produce fruit empowered by the Spirit. What if a person says they are a Christian and lives a life in willful rebellion? Well Abraham didn't Rebel so we don't have an example.

We do know that Nimrod's name means "We rebel". So rebelling is a Bad idea and there is no evidence one living in such a manner has the seal of God's Spirit. Both Paul and the Lord say a Christian is "Born Again" in which the Comforter will be with us "forever" (the Lord says).

Can a born-again sealed supernaturally "forever" in a state which they didn't deserve in the first place become unsealed by disobedience?

Can we just Trust God in his Promises? Or are we to worry that maybe we didn't produce fruit in an event we happen to see that guillotine blade coming down?

Graphic but it gets across the point.
Lack of spiritual growth with the resultant lack of spiritual production or good works - divine good, results divine discipline in time and in loss of reward in eternity, but not in loss of eternal life.

Understanding that your eternal salvation is based on faith alone in Christ alone is an essential doctrine. Not understanding it has eternal consequences as in the lake of fire. If in the mind of anyone who has heard the gospel, he came away with the misunderstanding that he has to do anything except believe on Christ to have eternal life, then he has not understood the issue and if he dies without ever coming to a proper understanding, and has tried to earn his salvation then he is eternally lost. Eternal life is a free gift and is offered only as such. You cannot work for it.


As far as James is concerned, he was not referring to doing any kind of works to earn eternal salvation, but was talking about the necessity of spiritual growth with its resultant spiritual production by which means the believer is experientially justified before both God and man.

The dead faith of which James spoke was with reference to a useless non productive spiritual life. Not to a false faith which doesn't lead to eternal salvation.

If only people would come to understand the difference between the believers legal, permanent and unbreakable union with Christ, and the believers day to day rapport or relationship with Christ. The difference between Positional sanctification and experiential sanctification.
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Old 02-06-2012, 09:53 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,890 posts, read 26,112,025 times
Reputation: 16012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph1980 View Post
Mike, we have gone back and forth about theology. I am holding fast and am not moved. Let me share something personal with you, to give you a more personal picture of where I am coming from... I don't want you to take for granted that this has been and continues to be a very personal and real journey for me:

If I drifted into "error" it is not because I read a couple of books or articles and decided to abandon all my good systematic theology. I have spent many nights and days crying and praying. Do you know how much easier it would be for me to abandon what I have learned, and go back to what was very comfortable, and (as my husband calls it) less "divisive"? Do you have any idea of the tension it has brought to my home life? Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have become an intercessor because of this, great zeal for God's true church has literally overtaken me, and I am learning to entrust myself to Him who judges justly, and to win my husband without a word. I am not suggesting that my familiy doesn't actually know the Lord. My point is that I am learning how to behave, and what God is asking of me... humility, grace, love, patience. On this forum I can express what I am learning boldly, but here in my daily life, I am learning restraint and humility and deep prayer. It is a very hard thing to go through, but being a disciple of Jesus is incredibly difficult.... until you get over it, and really give yourself to Him. Then, it is incredibly easy because you don't mind losing your life, whatever that entails
Now let me tell you something. I have learned what I know from such doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers as Robert B. Thieme Jr. whose Isagogical, categorical, exegetical teaching became a world wide ministry. He graduated summa *** laud from Dallas Theological Seminary where He acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and combined with his prior studies at the University of Arizona acquired a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew. He was pastor of Berachach church in Houston Texas for over 50 years. He is now with the Lord. I began learning from him when I was in my teens. I am now 58 years of age.

I now learn from other doctrinally oriented pastors, which I will list here.

DeanBible.org: Audio Files

Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

Class Catalog - Joe Griffin Media Ministries

I know what I am talking about whether you or anyone else agrees with me or not.

Last edited by Michael Way; 02-06-2012 at 10:03 PM..
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:09 PM
 
661 posts, read 617,864 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If only people would come to understand the difference between the believers legal, permanent and unbreakable union with Christ, and the believers day to day rapport or relationship with Christ. The difference between Positional sanctification and experiential sanctification.
Mike, what did Jesus mean when He said ...

- we are to abide in Him (the vine) or be cut off?
- many will say "Lord, Lord, did we not..." and yet He never knew them?
- the sheep and goats were distinguished from one another only by their works?
- no one who doesn't take up their cross and follow Him is worthy of Him?
- it is more difficult for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom?
- the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sells all he has to buy a field containing a pearl of great price?
- "Go and sin no more"?
- "Today salvation has come to this house" to Zacchaeus after he demonstrated works in keeping with repentance?
- if we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us?

Are these talking about sanctification apart from eternal salvation, or are they talking about discipleship necessary for salvation?
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:15 PM
 
661 posts, read 617,864 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Now let me tell you something. I have learned what I know from such doctrinally oriented pastor/teachers as Robert B. Thieme Jr. whose Isagogical, categorical, exegetical teaching became a world wide ministry. He graduated summa *** laud from Dallas Theological Seminary where He acquired the Biblical science of textual criticism and combined with his prior studies at the University of Arizona acquired a total of nine years of Greek and five years of Hebrew. He was pastor of Berachach church in Houston Texas for over 50 years. He is now with the Lord. I began learning from him when I was in my teens. I am now 58 years of age.

I now learn from other doctrinally oriented pastors, which I will list here.

DeanBible.org: Audio Files

Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX

Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

Class Catalog - Joe Griffin Media Ministries

I know what I am talking about whether you or anyone else agrees with me or not.
Thanks Mike. I appreciate that you have learned much from these men. I'm not trying to belittle your experience with my own... I am honestly not. And as an older gentleman with years of Christian experience, I do honour you and don't mean to show you any disrespect.

With that said, I am also learning that it is okay (but not easy) to be wrong about things, if it means being right about things... Do you know what I mean?

I'm not here to win a debate or prove a point. I am thankful for you, because you really challenge me.

Blessings
Stephanie
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