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Dear Friends,
I apologize if I have hurt anyone's feelings on this thread. If I was rude or disrespectful to any of you, please forgive me. That was never my intention. I have worked very hard to not be that way, but apparently, this topic has brought out the worst in me. I am truly sorry.
God Bless You All,
Katie
I may be presumptuously assuming I am included in your phrase . . . "Dear friends" . . . but I am just a soft-hearted old goat who seems to be losing his thick skin somehow. Like our Lord . . . I try to forgive everyone for whatever they need to be forgiven of . . . however difficult that can be sometimes . . . and I perceive that you seem to do likewise, Kate. When faith is dependent upon an unsupportable scripturally questionable concept like the infallibility and inerrancy of the written word . . . any challenges to that concept will naturally evoke intense emotional defensiveness. Striking out and avoidance are perfectly normal responses.
When faith is dependent upon the Living Word of God Jesus Christ who abides with us . . . the Holy Spirit within our consciousness leads us to what God has "written in our hearts" and we are comforted in the truth we find there. Failure to trust or believe what we find there under the guidance of the Holy Spirit actually requires imposing the "precepts and doctrines of men" on our inner conscience using rationalizations. Otherwise, we know in our hearts what is right and good and decent and what is not . . . if we are sincere with ourselves.
God knows our hearts and is not fooled by proclamations of belief or disbelief in doctrines . . . or by requests for Mary or anyone else to pray for us. As long as we are sincere in our "love of God and each other" . . . nothing else matters.
I may be presumptuously assuming I am included in your phrase . . . "Dear friends" . . . but I am just a soft-hearted old goat who seems to be losing his thick skin somehow. Like our Lord . . . I try to forgive everyone for whatever they need to be forgiven of . . . however difficult that can be sometimes . . . and I perceive that you seem to do likewise, Kate. When faith is dependent upon an unsupportable scripturally questionable concept like the infallibility and inerrancy of the written word . . . any challenges to that concept will naturally evoke intense emotional defensiveness. Striking out and avoidance are perfectly normal responses.
When faith is dependent upon the Living Word of God Jesus Christ who abides with us . . . the Holy Spirit within our consciousness leads us to what God has "written in our hearts" and we are comforted in the truth we find there. Failure to trust or believe what we find there under the guidance of the Holy Spirit actually requires imposing the "precepts and doctrines of men" on our inner conscience using rationalizations. Otherwise, we know in our hearts what is right and good and decent and what is not . . . if we are sincere with ourselves.
God knows our hearts and is not fooled by proclamations of belief or disbelief in doctrines . . . or by requests for Mary or anyone else to pray for us. As long as we are sincere in our "love of God and each other" . . . nothing else matters.
Of course you are included amongst my friends on the forum Mystic. Many a times we have been on the same side of the fence, and hopefully, we will continue to be more often than not.
Like you, I am an old softie as well, and the thoughts of me hurting someone on here are very upsetting to me. That is never my intention.
So, let us move forward in the discussion, and hopefully we can all remain kind to one another and pleasing to Him.
The Roman teachings of today are a mixture of Christianity and paganism. The reverence for the "saints" is basically the same as ancestor worship in religions like Shinto, or voodoo, where they honor the "spirits". Instead of calling upon God, as the scripture constantly teaches, these prayers to the saints are in fact a rebellion against the divine commands. I have news for anyone who prays to the saints. THEY ARE DEAD. They cannot hear you. They have gone to heaven or hell, but they are cut off from this world and cannot hear any prayers to them, nor can they speak to God on your behalf. Its all a fantasy, just like purgatory. There isn't a thread of evidence in the scriptures that Christains can or should do any of this.
And to say that these new teachings true is nothing but further attack on the authority of scripture itself.
Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Gal 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
The Roman teachings of today are a mixture of Christianity and paganism. The reverence for the "saints" is basically the same as ancestor worship in religions like Shinto, or voodoo, where they honor the "spirits". Instead of calling upon God, as the scripture constantly teaches, these prayers to the saints are in fact a rebellion against the divine commands. I have news for anyone who prays to the saints. THEY ARE DEAD. They cannot hear you. They have gone to heaven or hell, but they are cut off from this world and cannot hear any prayers to them, nor can they speak to God on your behalf. Its all a fantasy, just like purgatory. There isn't a thread of evidence in the scriptures that Christains can or should do any of this.
And to say that these new teachings true is nothing but further attack on the authority of scripture itself.
Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Gal 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Prairie,
The problem I am seeing is that people do not accept God's word as inspired or infallible. Instead, traditions of men are elevated above scripture. This is not only amongst our catholic friends. I'm finding this throughout society in my everyday life.
People no longer have faith in God's word, or God for that matter. It makes me so very sad. The further away we get from God's word, the more decadent our society is becoming. I think our country is in a downward spiral, and bad days are ahead for all of us.
I can only pray that people will wake up before it is too late. I know this is a little off topic, but I couldn't help getting a little off the beaten path here.
The Roman teachings of today are a mixture of Christianity and paganism. The reverence for the "saints" is basically the same as ancestor worship in religions like Shinto, or voodoo, where they honor the "spirits". Instead of calling upon God, as the scripture constantly teaches, these prayers to the saints are in fact a rebellion against the divine commands. I have news for anyone who prays to the saints. THEY ARE DEAD. They cannot hear you. They have gone to heaven or hell, but they are cut off from this world and cannot hear any prayers to them, nor can they speak to God on your behalf.
I do not understand about the folks that diminish God to such low human levels.
Their views assume God gets upset if someone prays to Mary or the Saints. Wow! That is an insecure God that needs external validation by us. I know the Bible speaks in that manner, however, these are words written in a different era where ignorance was king. My God is SOOOOOOOO much above yours that he does not need any prayer or external validation.
God is omnipotent, Omnipresent, ,Omniscient, and infinite among other things.
God does not need prayer. IN fact, it is well established in most schools of theology that prayer is for US and not for GOD.
To assume that God will not help those that pray to the Virgin or the Saints assumes a God that is cruel, petty, and insecure.
Folks, don't study the bible literally! For many of us it sounds as if you have a primitive view of God. A primitive view that comes from a pagan belief system.
We know a prayer to the Virgin is a prayer to God. We know a prayer to the Virgun brings folks closer to God.
Here is an article from a main line Protestant Church on Virgin Mary:
Quote:
What Do Lutherans Believe About the Virgin Mary?
By Dr. Richard P. Bucher
Several years ago there was an article that appeared in the June/July, 1992 issue of the Marian Helpers Bulletin entitled "Why All the Fuss about Mary?" This puzzling article has as its thesis that "devotion to Mary leads us to her Son, not away from Him." For such a statement to appear in a periodical devoted to Mary is not puzzling. What is puzzling is that this article was written by a Lutheran parish pastor, the Rev. Charles Dickson, Ph.D.
Pastor Dickson informs us that though he was raised to believe that devotion to Mary by Roman Catholics "deflected from the centrality of Christ," 30 years of parish ministry has taught him that just the opposite is true. He believes that "by upholding the importance of the blessed Virgin, Catholics do not minimize the importance of Christ, but actually ... emphasize His mission." And "When the Church ceases to focus on Mary, it loses its focus on Christ."
The problem I am seeing is that people do not accept God's word as inspired or infallible. Instead, traditions of men are elevated above scripture. This is not only amongst our catholic friends. I'm finding this throughout society in my everyday life.
People no longer have faith in God's word, or God for that matter. It makes me so very sad. The further away we get from God's word, the more decadent our society is becoming. I think our country is in a downward spiral, and bad days are ahead for all of us.
I can only pray that people will wake up before it is too late. I know this is a little off topic, but I couldn't help getting a little off the beaten path here.
Blessings,
Katie
I think some of us are destroying Christianity and we need to move ahead into a more conciliatory, benevolent, and kinder view of religious differences.
It is quite possible that hard core fundamentalism and a Catholic Church that changes very slowly will lead to the demise of Christianity. To that we can add Jewish and Muslim extreme views. These folks also believe they are correct.
I don't leave logic and reason behind when I look at religion and I have concluded that everybody worships the same God in a completely different manner. The Jews think they are correct and so does the Muslims and Christians.
Christianity as well as other religions is set up on fear, reward, and punishment. Everybody has a Nirvana and a hell. That is also pagan
Can you believe that some folks believe in hell?????????
My Catholic Church is no different, but I am encouraged by the high level of education of many of our priests who now see God in a different more progressive manner.
As long as there are fundamentalists that think Catholics worship Satan we are in trouble.
Can you believe that there are people that believe in Satan???????
I do not understand about the folks that diminish God to such low human levels.
Their views assume God gets upset if someone prays to Mary or the Saints. Wow! That is an insecure God that needs external validation by us. I know the Bible speaks in that manner, however, these are words written in a different era where ignorance was king. My God is SOOOOOOOO much above yours that he does not need any prayer or external validation.
God is omnipotent, Omnipresent, ,Omniscient, and infinite among other things.
God does not need prayer. IN fact, it is well established in most schools of theology that prayer is for US and not for GOD.
To assume that God will not help those that pray to the Virgin or the Saints assumes a God that is cruel, petty, and insecure.
Folks, don't study the bible literally! For many of us it sounds as if you have a primitive view of God. A primitive view that comes from a pagan belief system.
We know a prayer to the Virgin is a prayer to God. We know a prayer to the Virgun brings folks closer to God.
Here is an article from a main line Protestant Church on Virgin Mary:
Julian,
The reason you can't understand Prairie's or my perception of God is because both he and I believe the Bible is the inspired, infallible word of God.
In the Bible, God very clearly states on more than one occasion that He is a jealous God.
So because we are coming to the table with a different view of God's word, we, that is you and I can never agree. Do you see what I am saying? It's not about who is right or wrong. There simply isn't common ground.
Yet I cannot get past the idea that some things you have written on the forum are Bible based. For example, your views on celibacy you quote scriptures to support your beliefs.
With all due respect, you quote the Bible when you need support and say it is not the word of God when it contradicts the beliefs of the RCC. This is so inconsistent. You can't just pick and choose what you like and don't like.
Am I making sense here? Either believe it all or believe none.
I think some of us are destroying Christianity and we need to move ahead into a more conciliatory, benevolent, and kinder view of religious differences.
It is quite possible that hard core fundamentalism and a Catholic Church that changes very slowly will lead to the demise of Christianity. To that we can add Jewish and Muslim extreme views. These folks also believe they are correct.
I don't leave logic and reason behind when I look at religion and I have concluded that everybody worships the same God in a completely different manner. The Jews think they are correct and so does the Muslims and Christians.
Christianity as well as other religions is set up on fear, reward, and punishment. Everybody has a Nirvana and a hell. That is also pagan
Can you believe that some folks believe in hell?????????
My Catholic Church is no different, but I am encouraged by the high level of education of many of our priests who now see God in a different more progressive manner.
As long as there are fundamentalists that think Catholics worship Satan we are in trouble.
Can you believe that there are people that believe in Satan???????
We need to mature.
God Bless!
No I don't believe catholics worsip Satan. I've never heard that before.
I do believe in eternal punishment, or hell though. Sheep to the right, goats to the left. Truth be known, I don't spend time thinking about hell because I believe I won't be there.
Baaaaaaaaa!
In the Bible, God very clearly states on more than one occasion that He is a jealous God.
Katie: It is a figure of speech, a preaching tool. How in the world can God be jealous? That is a mundane primitive human sensation based on insecurity.
Quote:
So because we are coming to the table with a different view of God's word, we can never agree. Do you see what I am saying? It's not about who is right or wrong. There simply isn't common ground.
I disagree, there is plenty of common ground if we learn to admire the differences among us. It may seem I am against Sola Scriptura, but in reality I am reacting like a Catholic Apologetic. Furthermore, most of the Bible is amazing, but there are things that are clearly allegoric. Do you realize that if you accept evolution and cosmology the book of Genesis regarding creation is still valid?
Quote:
Yet I cannot get past the idea that some things you have written on the forum are Bible based. For example, your views on celibacy you quote scriptures to support.
Yep, I have used the bible because IMHO that was the only way I could state my point. I am actually against celibacy. The RCC is losing valuable resources due to celibacy. Nevertheless, Paul clearly favored celibacy.
For the first 1100 years of the church priests were married (including the Popes). However, they tried to leave church property to their children and there was corruption. During those days many people without vocation joined the Catholic Church for the benefits of education, money, and prestige. Only the priests had a chance at a good education. The point of having vows of celibacy and vows of poverty were to attract the truly pious men.
Quote:
With all due respect, you quote the Bible when you need support and say it is not the word of God when it contradicts the beliefs of the RCC. This is so inconsistent. You can't just pick and choose what you like and don't like.
Am I making sense?
Sure, you make sense. If I can quite the bible my point will have more weight in your eyes. But, we need a bit of common sense when looking at the culture of 2000 years ago. Our priest always preach philosophy based on the bible. We need a philosophical point that makes sense today.
No I don't believe catholics worsip Satan. I've never heard that before.
I do believe in eternal punishment, or hell though. Sheep to the right, goats to the left. Truth be known, I don't spend time thinking about hell because I believe I won't be there.
Baaaaaaaaa!
Kate
I asked a Jesuit Priest:
"Father; what is hell?"
He said "The absence of God."
Rather simple and with no burning flames.
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