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Pandora, Isaiah 53:7 identifes Jesus as a lamb led to the slaughter, and links Him to the Passover lamb which was killed on the 14th day of the month of Nisan each year. But Jesus was the true Passover Lamb and made the perfect sacrifice.
I must say that you are the only person who I have ever heard who doesn't think that Jesus is the true Passover Lamb.
Pandora, I don't think that I am going to convince you, and so I will leave it at that.
I am remembering you in prayer.
~ Dear brother, years ago I 'fell into a trance' at a church.
And was overcome by
waves after wave in understandings of enlightenments.
This is the only way I know to explain it.
Since then, I too understand I've spoke and believed differently
about 'church doctrine'. To the amazement of others and even myself.
There's just not any scripture to be quoted
of Christ, being 'the passover Lamb'.
Isaiah 53 is prophetic for the phrase
which is quoted of actual ScriptureS "The Lamb 0f God".
I do not deny Jesus as this 'Lamb'.
What make you believe
'the passover' sacrifice did not meet the perfect requirments?
The requirments of 'the passover' 'sacrifice' is that
it is either of a male lamb or goat, without blemish.
Christ did'nt come to Re-New the covenants of God.
Christ gave "The (NEW) Covenant".
Not the re-newed covenant.
The passover sacrifice
was to be killed; and eaten only on the 14th.
None of it is to be left over for the next day on the 15th.
The reason 'unleaven bread' is to be eaten on 'the passover'?
Is not because it is also 'The Feast 0f Unleaven Bread'.
Which starts the on the 15th day, after 'passover'.
But the reason unleavened bread is eaten on passover is
because God said,
N0 Leavened bread is to be eaten with any sacrifice.
Apparent problem. Not actual problem. The two calendar solution to that apparent problem is not widely accepted. There is no real problem that requires a solution. Those solutions are offered in an attempt to explain peoples difficulty in understanding that apparent but non existent contradiction.
It has been laid out and explained in my posts. John 19:14 is explained by the fact that the term Passover is not restricted to Passover day, but is used also for the entire 7 day Feast of Unleavened bread which follows Passover. As mentioned, The translators of the 1984 edition of the NIV recognizing this, translated John 19:14 as Passover Week, rather then simply as Passover. Again, that is the 1984 edition. Other Bible translations have also translated it as such. In the original it says only 'Passover.' There is no mention of 'day' or 'week.' But in popular useage, Passover referred not only to the day on which Jesus was crucified, but to the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which followed the day on which Jesus was crucified. Refer to posts #1, 10, and 21.
All of the events between John chapter 13:2 and chapter 18 occur within the space of one evening. This is the Passover meal. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. At the conclusion of chapter 17 Jesus finished His words which began in chapter 13., And beginning in chapter 18 Jesus and the disciples go to the garden of Gethsemane. As mentioned a couple of times, John chapter 13 records Jesus' announcement that He would be betrayed by Judas Iscariot. All four gospels record the fact that Jesus made this announcement that He was going to be betrayed. All four gospels record that after the meal, Jesus went to the garden of Gethsemane where He was arrested. Refer to posts # 33, 59, and 64.
About whether John was using Roman time.
Luke 23:44 says it's the sixth hour - noon. Jesus is on the cross and God has just caused a supernatural darkness to fall on the land.
John 19:14 says it's the sixth hour , and Jesus hasn't even been led out to Golgotha where He would be crucified. He is still standing before Pilate and the Jews are screaming for Jesus to be taken away and crucified.
If John had meant that the sixth hour in John 19:14 referred to noon, that would mean that Jesus would not have been put on the cross until considerably after noon. It took some time to take Jesus from the Praetorium where He had His final trial before Pilate, to Golgotha where He was crucified. How long? A half hour? An hour? I don't know. The point is, Jesus would not have been crucified until sometime after noon. And that is ridiculous. There is no way that John would have said such a boneheaded thing.
Two different time periods and two different events are being mentioned here.
In John 1:39 and John 4:6 commentors differ on whether John was using Roman or Jewish time. But in John 19:14, the sixth hour was referring to 6 A.M Roman time.
John 18:28 says, Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early (proia); and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.
I'll paraphrase The NASB Study Bible note on John 18:28 concerning the phrase 'eat the Passover.' 'John is not referring to the Passover meal which is eaten on the 14th day of the month, because that would contradict the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. John is referring to the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called Passover and in which are a number of meals.' [end of paraphrase] Again, refer to posts #1, 10, and 21.
The Greek word 'proia'(John 18:28) refers to the 4th watch or shift from 3 A.M to 6 A.M. The 4th watch of the night was the day break watch.
The Roman system had four watches or shifts.
The first watch: 6 P.M to 9 P.M
The second watch: 9 P.M to midnight
The third watch: midnight to 3 A.M
The fourth watch: 3 A.M to 6 A.M
Jesus referred to these four watches in Mark 13:35. ''Therefore, be on the alert, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, at cockcrowing, or in the morning.
The Jews on the other hand, at least in Gideon's day (Judges 7:19) had three watches during the night.
The first watch: sunset to 10 P.M.
The second watch: 10 P.M. to 2 A.M.
The third watch: 2 A.M. to sunrise.
Sources of information for the three Jewish watches and four Roman watches:
1.) NASB Study Bible, note for Matthew 14:25, page 1389.
2.) Bible Knowledge Commentary Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, comment on Judges 7:19, page 394.
In John 18:28 the reference is to the period between 3 A.M. and 6 A.M. when Jesus had been led into the Praetorium to be tried by Pilate. (Pilate actually tried Jesus twice. He had sent Jesus to Herod who sent Him back to Pilate.)
In John 19:14 the reference is to 6 A.M. Roman time (the end of the forth watch) when Pilate finally gave in to the crowd and ordered Jesus' crucifixion.
I'll paraphrase The Bible Knowledge Commentary on John 19:14 concerning the phrase 'it was the day of preparation for the Passover.' 'The day of preparation was itself the day on which Jesus was crucified. The day of preparation was itself Passover day. It was the day of preparation for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which was popularly called Passover Week.' [end of paraphrase]
Once again, refer to posts #1, 10, and 21.
1: the NIV's translation of "Passover Week" is wrong and has been superceded by the NIV's new translation (Today's New International Version), for the word "Week" does not appear in the Greek.
Need I say more? Of course you're translating from an older, less reliable translation - instead of using their newer, more accurate translation. Here is what Today's New International Version has:
It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
(John 19:14, TNIV)
Just another reason why learning Greek is helpful - so you can make informed decisions concerning the validity of a translation, and so you don't get tricked into choosing a translation that is chosen merely because it agrees with what you already want it to say.
Even if you WERE to stick with the NIV, the NIV Commentary I quoted earlier in this thread specifically says, concerning the phrase "Passover Week":
John 19:14 - "Preparation of Passover Week":
Cf. 18:28; 19:31; i.e., Passover Eve, Friday of Passover Week.
The old NIV translation you keep quoting endlessly has already been dealt with by those familiar with the translational principles of the old NIV. Are you reading my posts? It no longer matters - as the TNIV has now made it more clear and accurate.
In the end - it doesn't matter WHAT translation says "Week" (as I'm sure you're now furiously attempting to find some) - check the original Greek, IF you can. Please, please don't quote anymore more translations using "Passover Week" - it's just not an accurate translation of the Greek text, if you have any respect for the Bible at all...
2: There IS a problem.
You're absolutely right that the "different calendar" solution is not widely accepted, and it has only been offered to solve the problem (an attempt at apologetics - what you're practicing - but at least, an informed one), which DOES exist. Despite your claim that "There is no real problem that requires a solution" - there IS a problem, as a glance at any writing on the John vs Synoptic problem shows. You can claim there's no issue till you're blue in the face, but it is there. John's Jesus died on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, and the Synoptic's Jesus died on Passover Day. Deny it, explain it away if you can - it's still there.
I have to keep reminding myself - you think you're right, and the vast majority of biblical scholars and biblical translators are dead wrong.... Because you have SOOO many more credentials then they do, right? I can only assume that you lack Greek, especially since you were relying on the old NIV for your argument, without bothering to check the original Greek.
3: Roman or Jewish Time.
So your suggestion is that John flipped back and forth between Jewish and Roman time - but ONLY when it suits your purpose. Real nice reasoning, Mike. Try again!
A heads up - don't use other Gospels to try to figure out what John's sense of time usage meant: use John. It's his Gospel. The problem of John's time chronology vs Mark's is another well-known "problem" and inconsistency that I don't even want to get into here. The discrepancy exists, even though you will claim that it doesn't, by falling back on "Roman Time" when it suits your fancy.
6 AM, eh? Pretty early, Roman time, to have a crowd of jewish people meeting before Pilate. John has the time at Noon to coincide with the time when the sacrifical lambs for Passover would be slaughtered - AGAIN, evidence for John's theological idea that Jesus was the Lamb slaughtered on the day before Passover. The fact that his bones were not broken adds to this idea, for the same habit is performed on the Passover lamb in Jewish ritual. Why don't you see this? JOHN IS TRYING TO MAKE A VERY OBVIOUS POINT.
4: The Bible Knowledge Commentary is biased
I've already pointed this out before, but this quote from their "mission statement" reveals their non-scholarly bent:
The Bible Knowledge Commentary is written by faculty members of one school — Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS). DTS is noted for its commitment to the inerrancy of the Scriptures, dispensational theology, and biblical preaching and teaching.
It's pretty obvious that they have a biased agenda that colors their commentary, and that is plain from just reading the quotes you have offered. Luckily, the commentary has a bad reputation for accuracy and is not widely used - except by Fundamentalist Christians who wish to remain hundreds of years in the past with their level of biblical literacy. Seriously - stop quoting from that commentary!
Some of us want accurate information, NOT Biased information that is based on some preconceived idea of "biblical inerrancy"!
5: Here - Let me quote from yet another reliable commentary that disagrees entirely with you:
John 19:14: Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover.
This is mentioned, together with the precise timing (sixth hour), because for John the relation of the death of Jesus to the Jewish Passover was important. In this Gospel the Passover was not held until after the crucifixion, although the Synoptic Gospels seem to imply that the Last Supper was Passover time (cf. Mark 14:12).
(The New Bible Commentary: Revised, Donald Guthrie [Editor, Contributor], p. 964, New York: Guideposts, 1967 - Revised)
In Guthrie's Introduction to John he mentions several things.
A comparison with the other Gospels shows a marked difference in John in the substance and in the method of presentation.....
Certain historical differences have also been noted, such as the setting of the cleansing of the Temple, the events which precipitated the arrest of Jesus, the duration of the ministry and the date of the Last Supper. From these considerations some have concluded that John aims to correct and supersede the Synoptics....
The most difficult problem is the chronology of the passion events. The solution may lie in the use of different calendars by John and the Synoptics, but the data are not sufficient to point to a completely satisfying answer.
(ibid, p. 927)
Guthrie mentions the "different calendar" theory and rightly (I think) rejects it, leaving the contradictions intact and - yes - a problem that the majority of Biblical scholars insist exists, the text shows exists - but YOU feel is not a problem. That's right. What are you doing wasting your time writing on forums - shouldn't you be publishing academic papers and correcting all these scholarly "buffoons" lol?
Don't worry, Mike - I have an extensive library (you have no idea) and can cite contrary views to your own to all of eternity. Perhaps it's time you considered that you may be wrong - there's no crime in that. Or does Pride have you in it's grasp?
1: the NIV's translation of "Passover Week" is wrong and has been superceded by the NIV's new translation (Today's New International Version), for the word "Week" does not appear in the Greek.
Need I say more? Of course you're translating from an older, less reliable translation - instead of using their newer, more accurate translation. Here is what Today's New International Version has:
It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
(John 19:14, TNIV)
Just another reason why learning Greek is helpful - so you can make informed decisions concerning the validity of a translation, and so you don't get tricked into choosing a translation that is chosen merely because it agrees with what you already want it to say.
Even if you WERE to stick with the NIV, the NIV Commentary I quoted earlier in this thread specifically says, concerning the phrase "Passover Week":
John 19:14 - "Preparation of Passover Week": Cf. 18:28; 19:31; i.e., Passover Eve, Friday of Passover Week.
The old NIV translation you keep quoting endlessly has already been dealt with by those familiar with the translational principles of the old NIV. Are you reading my posts? It no longer matters - as the TNIV has now made it more clear and accurate.
In the end - it doesn't matter WHAT translation says "Week" (as I'm sure you're now furiously attempting to find some) - check the original Greek, IF you can.
In post #99 I said the following regarding John 19:14. --> 'In the original it says only 'Passover.' There is no mention of 'day' or 'week.' But in popular useage, Passover referred not only to the day on which Jesus was crucified, but to the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which followed the day on which Jesus was crucified. Refer to posts #1, 10, and 21.'
I clearly mentioned that the original lanquage does not say either 'day' or 'week', but simply says 'Passover' (pascha). Some translations seek to give a word for word translation, while others seek to convey the idea. And this goes right back to my first post where I posted these verses which speak of the seven day Feast of Passover.
Ezekiel 45:21 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.... 23] ''And during the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
Clearly stated in Ezekiel that the seven day Feast of Unleavened bread is called the Passover.
The 1984 Edition of the NIV recognized that Passover included the entire seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread as Ezekiel 45:21 and other passages makes clear.
The word 'Passover' Can Refer to Entire Passover Season. Not just to the 14th day of the month of Nisan which was the day that Jesus was crucified.
Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ''Where do You want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?''
Mark 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread was two days off; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to kill Him;
Mark 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, ''Where do you want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?''
Luke 22:1, 7 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called the Passover was approaching ...7] Then came the day of unleavened bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
Lev 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is is the LORD'S Passover. 6] Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you ahall eat unleavened bread.
Ezekiel 45:21 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.... 23] ''And during the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
And as has also been mentioned, Passover day itself which is the 14th day of the month of Nisan is the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th day of the month. Passover day is the preparation day for Passover week. In popular usage, Passover day itself was sometimes called the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, even though in a strict sense, the first day of Unleavened Bread started the day after Passover day. This is because Passover day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are so closely related. The six verses immediately above show how closely the two are associated.
It is you who are not reading MY posts.
For now, this is the only part of your post that I will reply to. I'll do the rest later when I have time. Also, this isolates what you said above from the rest of your post and focuses on the fact that you either don't read what I have said, or you don't read with comprehension, or you are deliberately ignoring what I have said.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-25-2012 at 04:44 PM..
"All of the events between John chapter 13:2 and chapter 18 occur within the space of one evening. This is the Passover meal. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise."
RESPONSE:
John 19:31-33: “Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.”
Notes: (1) The Preparation Day was the day before a Sabbath.
(2) It is probable that John here referring to the preparation day before the Passover Sabbath ( a High Sabbath) and not the Saturday Sabbath.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 02-25-2012 at 04:54 PM..
Reason: typo
"All of the events between John chapter 13:2 and chapter 18 occur within the space of one evening. This is the Passover meal. There is absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise."
RESPONSE:
John 19:31-33: “Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.”
Notes: (1) The Preparation Day was the day before a Sabbath.
(2) It is probable that John here referring to the preparation day before the Passover Sabbath ( a High Sabbath) and not the Saturday Sabbath.
Of course he was. I've been saying that all along. But the preparation day IS Passover day itself. Passover day was on the 14th day of the month of Nisan. Passover day itselfwas the preparation day for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which began on the next day. The first day (the 15th day of the month of Nisan) of the Feast of Unleavened bread was a Sabbath day.
Passover day began at sunset on the 13th day of the month. When the sun set on the 13th day it became the 14th day which is Passover day. Jesus ate the Passover meal after sunset. Then He went to the garden of Gethsemane where He was arrested after midnight which was still the 14th day of the month by Jewish reckoning. He then was tried thoughout the night and was crucified at 9 A.M. which was still the 14th day of the month - still Passover day. After the sunset on the 14th day, it became the 15th day of the month, the first day of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread, and a Sabbath day. The entire seven day Feast of Unleavened bread was Passover Week. And with the actual Passover day which was on the 14th, that makes 8 days of Passover celebration.
John 19:14 'Now it (the 14th day of the month - Passover day) was the day of preparation for the Passover (Passover Week). It was about the sixth hour ( 6 A.M Roman time). And he said to the Jews, ''Behold, your King!''John 19:14 'It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.' [NIV, 1984 edition]
In regard to this, see post #105
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-25-2012 at 06:00 PM..
In post #99 I said the following regarding John 19:14. --> 'In the original it says only 'Passover.' There is no mention of 'day' or 'week.' But in popular useage, Passover referred not only to the day on which Jesus was crucified, but to the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which followed the day on which Jesus was crucified. Refer to posts #1, 10, and 21.'
I clearly mentioned that the original lanquage does not say either 'day' or 'week', but simply says 'Passover' (pascha). Some translations seek to give a word for word translation, while others seek to convey the idea. And this goes right back to my first post where I posted these verses which speak of the seven day Feast of Passover.
Ezekiel 45:21 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.... 23] ''And during the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
Clearly stated in Ezekiel that the seven day Feast of Unleavened bread is called the Passover.
The 1984 Edition of the NIV recognized that Passover included the entire seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread as Ezekiel 45:21 and other passages makes clear.
The word 'Passover' Can Refer to Entire Passover Season. Not just to the 14th day of the month of Nisan which was the day that Jesus was crucified.
Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ''Where do You want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?''
Mark 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread was two days off; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to kill Him;
Mark 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, ''Where do you want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?''
Luke 22:1, 7 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called the Passover was approaching ...7] Then came the day of unleavened bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
Lev 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is is the LORD'S Passover. 6] Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you ahall eat unleavened bread.
Ezekiel 45:21 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.... 23] ''And during the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
And as has also been mentioned, Passover day itself which is the 14th day of the month of Nisan is the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th day of the month. Passover day is the preparation day for Passover week. In popular usage, Passover day itself was sometimes called the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, even though in a strict sense, the first day of Unleavened Bread started the day after Passover day. This is because Passover day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are so closely related. The six verses immediately above show how closely the two are associated.
It is you who are not reading MY posts.
For now, this is the only part of your post that I will reply to. I'll do the rest later when I have time. Also, this isolates what you said above from the rest of your post and focuses on the fact that you either don't read what I have said, or you don't read with comprehension, or you are deliberately ignoring what I have said.
Mike, let's get something straight. I read your posts fully. I also understand what you are trying to say. Just because I don't agree with what you have written over and over, doesn't mean I haven't read or understood them. Okay?
I have already dealt with your crappy interlinear translation and dismissed it in an earlier post (if you refuse to accept the facts of interlinears and their limitations, deal with it - don't accuse me of "ignoring your evidence" or of "not reading your posts"): An interlinear is NOT a good substitute for knowing the original language. A case in point is an interlinear that I have sitting on my shelf (but never use because of it's interpretational choices) of the Book of Job. In the Book of Job, all references to the being who makes the bet with Yahweh are, in the Hebrew, "the satan". They are not references to a personal name, but to a title. The noun "satan" is always, always preceded by the definite article "the" in Job and the earlier books of the Bible. In later books of the Bible (after Persian influence), the very few mentions of a satan character lack the definite article "the", so one could translate them as Satan if one wished. The title has now become a personal name.
But NOT in Job. It is "the satan", or "the adversary" if one wishes to translate the actual meaning of the word. The person who has done the translation of the interlinear in question used Satan as a personal name in the Book of Job. This is wrong, wrong and double wrong. He is letting his own Christian ideas of Satan interfere with an accurate translation - just like you and your "Passover Week" insistence.
My point is that an interlinear includes a translator's own interpretation of what he thinks the text is saying or should be saying. It is not an accurate substitute for a knowledge of the original language - ever. Interlinears are tools for those who wish to get a little closer to the original language, but they are essentially useless for many things. It's just simply impossible to convey all the nuances of a language in an interlinear. They are dangerous tools if used without knowledge.
You referring to "popular usage" to justify adding a word to a text is not borne out by virtually any other competent translator of the text - hop-skipping all over the Bible to find obscure exaples that match your personal interpretation. It is only used by those apologists (like yourself) who have a limited or non-existent knowledge of the Greek and are trying to bolster up their misunderstanding and personal interpretation of the text. That is what you're doing every time you quote your NIV passage, and your interlinear passage. Sorry - but those are the facts.
There is a reason the NIV updated it's translation. Maybe it's time for you to do the same. You don't think there's something wrong with clinging to an out-dated translation that nobody else favors? I notice in a post above this one that you're STILL using that NIV translation to try to make your point. I don't know if you realize this - but it makes you look incompetent. That's not a personal attack, just an observation: you're not helping your case when you rely on interlinears and bad translations LOL. Meanwhile, you have the temerity to accuse experts and scholars of all being wrong ha ha!
Mike - you're so scared and defensive over this whole issue - an issue that other christians have come to terms with ages ago. When are you going to, rather than attacking those who already have done so? The Book of John and it's fascinating theology and outlook is waiting for you, once you get over yourself.
[b] 2: There IS a problem.
You're absolutely right that the "different calendar" solution is not widely accepted, and it has only been offered to solve the problem (an attempt at apologetics - what you're practicing - but at least, an informed one), which DOES exist. Despite your claim that "There is no real problem that requires a solution" - there IS a problem, as a glance at any writing on the John vs Synoptic problem shows. You can claim there's no issue till you're blue in the face, but it is there. John's Jesus died on the Day of Preparation for the Passover, and the Synoptic's Jesus died on Passover Day. Deny it, explain it away if you can - it's still there.
I have to keep reminding myself - you think you're right, and the vast majority of biblical scholars and biblical translators are dead wrong.... Because you have SOOO many more credentials then they do, right? I can only assume that you lack Greek, especially since you were relying on the old NIV for your argument, without bothering to check the original Greek.
Liberals and secular skeptics imagine contradictions where none exist.
As explained throughout this thread, the last two being #105 and 107, Passover day itself is the day of preparation for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called Passover Week.
All four Gospels teach that Jesus died on Passover day.
Quote:
3: Roman or Jewish Time.
So your suggestion is that John flipped back and forth between Jewish and Roman time - but ONLY when it suits your purpose. Real nice reasoning, Mike. Try again!
As shown in post #99, John used Roman time in John 19:14.
Quote:
A heads up - don't use other Gospels to try to figure out what John's sense of time usage meant: use John. It's his Gospel. The problem of John's time chronology vs Mark's is another well-known "problem" and inconsistency that I don't even want to get into here. The discrepancy exists, even though you will claim that it doesn't, by falling back on "Roman Time" when it suits your fancy.
All four Gospels complement each other and each emphasizes a different aspect of Christ. The Gospels are not to be isolated from each other.
Quote:
6 AM, eh? Pretty early, Roman time, to have a crowd of jewish people meeting before Pilate. John has the time at Noon to coincide with the time when the sacrifical lambs for Passover would be slaughtered - AGAIN, evidence for John's theological idea that Jesus was the Lamb slaughtered on the day before Passover. The fact that his bones were not broken adds to this idea, for the same habit is performed on the Passover lamb in Jewish ritual. Why don't you see this? JOHN IS TRYING TO MAKE A VERY OBVIOUS POINT.
Jesus' trails continued throughout the night. Those trials ended around 6 A.M. and Jesus was crucified at 9 A.M.
This was already exlained in post #99
Quote:
4: The Bible Knowledge Commentary is biased
I've already pointed this out before, but this quote from their "mission statement" reveals their non-scholarly bent:
The Bible Knowledge Commentary is written by faculty members of one school — Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS). DTS is noted for its commitment to the inerrancy of the Scriptures, dispensational theology, and biblical preaching and teaching.
It's pretty obvious that they have a biased agenda that colors their commentary, and that is plain from just reading the quotes you have offered. Luckily, the commentary has a bad reputation for accuracy and is not widely used - except by Fundamentalist Christians who wish to remain hundreds of years in the past with their level of biblical literacy. Seriously - stop quoting from that commentary!
Some of us want accurate information, NOT Biased information that is based on some preconceived idea of "biblical inerrancy"!
To the liberal mind, teaching Biblical truth is bias. The liberal mind attacks the fundamental truths of the Bible.
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5: Here - Let me quote from yet another reliable commentary that disagrees entirely with you:
John 19:14: Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover.
This is mentioned, together with the precise timing (sixth hour), because for John the relation of the death of Jesus to the Jewish Passover was important. In this Gospel the Passover was not held until after the crucifixion, although the Synoptic Gospels seem to imply that the Last Supper was Passover time (cf. Mark 14:12).
(The New Bible Commentary: Revised, Donald Guthrie [Editor, Contributor], p. 964, New York: Guideposts, 1967 - Revised)
In Guthrie's Introduction to John he mentions several things.
A comparison with the other Gospels shows a marked difference in John in the substance and in the method of presentation.....
Certain historical differences have also been noted, such as the setting of the cleansing of the Temple, the events which precipitated the arrest of Jesus, the duration of the ministry and the date of the Last Supper. From these considerations some have concluded that John aims to correct and supersede the Synoptics....
The most difficult problem is the chronology of the passion events. The solution may lie in the use of different calendars by John and the Synoptics, but the data are not sufficient to point to a completely satisfying answer.
(ibid, p. 927)
Guthrie mentions the "different calendar" theory and rightly (I think) rejects it, leaving the contradictions intact and - yes - a problem that the majority of Biblical scholars insist exists, the text shows exists - but YOU feel is not a problem. That's right. What are you doing wasting your time writing on forums - shouldn't you be publishing academic papers and correcting all these scholarly "buffoons" lol?
Don't worry, Mike - I have an extensive library (you have no idea) and can cite contrary views to your own to all of eternity. Perhaps it's time you considered that you may be wrong - there's no crime in that. Or does Pride have you in it's grasp?
The opinions of the majority do not establish truth. I have no regard for the opinions of liberal and secular skeptics. Their intent is to discredit the word of God.
Passover day itself is the day of preparation for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread.
The following is from post #105.
The word 'Passover' Can Refer to Entire Passover Season. Not just to the 14th day of the month of Nisan which was the day that Jesus was crucified.
Matthew 26:17 Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ''Where do You want us to prepare for you to eat the Passover?''
Mark 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread was two days off; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to kill Him;
Mark 14:12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb was being sacrificed, His disciples said to Him, ''Where do you want us to go and prepare for You to eat the Passover?''
Luke 22:1, 7 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is called the Passover was approaching ...7] Then came the day of unleavened bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
Lev 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is is the LORD'S Passover. 6] Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you ahall eat unleavened bread.
Ezekiel 45:21 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.... 23] ''And during the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
And as has also been mentioned, Passover day itself which is the 14th day of the month of Nisan is the preparation day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread which begins on the 15th day of the month. Passover day is the preparation day for Passover week. In popular usage, Passover day itself was sometimes called the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, even though in a strict sense, the first day of Unleavened Bread started the day after Passover day. This is because Passover day and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are so closely related. The six verses immediately above show how closely the two are associated.
I have taken the time to show you and others that John does not contradict the other Gospels. All four show that Jesus was crucified on Passover day. I have supplied sources for what I have said, not the least of which are the Scriptures themselves.
But you are not interested in the truth. And since there is a lack of interest from others concerning this thread, I will devote no more time to it, except to refer back to posts previously written.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-25-2012 at 09:45 PM..
Of course he was. I've been saying that all along. But the preparation day IS Passover day itself. Passover day was on the 14th day of the month of Nisan. Passover day itselfwas the preparation day for the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread which began on the next day. The first day (the 15th day of the month of Nisan) of the Feast of Unleavened bread was a Sabbath day.
Passover day began at sunset on the 13th day of the month. When the sun set on the 13th day it became the 14th day which is Passover day. Jesus ate the Passover meal after sunset. Then He went to the garden of Gethsemane where He was arrested after midnight which was still the 14th day of the month by Jewish reckoning. He then was tried thoughout the night and was crucified at 9 A.M. which was still the 14th day of the month - still Passover day. After the sunset on the 14th day, it became the 15th day of the month, the first day of the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread, and a Sabbath day. The entire seven day Feast of Unleavened bread was Passover Week. And with the actual Passover day which was on the 14th, that makes 8 days of Passover celebration.
John 19:14 'Now it (the 14th day of the month - Passover day) was the day of preparation for the Passover (Passover Week). It was about the sixth hour ( 6 A.M Roman time). And he said to the Jews, ''Behold, your King!''John 19:14 'It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.' [NIV, 1984 edition]
In regard to this, see post #105
God said, "Three times you shall keep a Feast to Me in a year.
1.) "The Feast 0f Unleaven Bread"
in the month of Abib when they came out of Egypt. - Ex.23:15
2.) "The Feast 0f Harvest" (firstfruits)
3.) "The Feast 0f Ingathering"
How is our fate or faith in God and Jesus remotely affected by the truth or falsity (or in truth ambiguity) of any of this?
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Pardon me . . .but what is the difference?
