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Nope, not trying to steer it into a UR discussion. We have been discussing whether or not a person can choose to believe something that they don't. I was simply using UR as an example because I know that you don't believe it. The question is could you choose to believe it anyway? I don't think you could. And if you can't choose to believe something you aren't convinced of, why would you think anyone else could?
I explained it to you, and you refuse to even try to understand it. It is the same with you not understanding God. You cannot understand Him, because you refuse to try. If you truly seeked Him, you would discover the truth.
I explained it to you, and you refuse to even try to understand it. It is the same with you not understanding God. You cannot understand Him, because you refuse to try. If you truly seeked Him, you would discover the truth.
Okay. So, at least you agree that you could not choose to believe something you don't. First you have to "discover" something, or have it revealed to you, before you will believe it. I'm content to end the conversation on a point of agreement.
Sure you dont have to want to be saved, live life however you want just understand you will as purely dead and non existant as you have never been in your life. Also just abandon all your family at this point so they can grow stronger soon than later because you left them alone without you for eternity
Okay. So, at least you agree that you could not choose to believe something you don't. First you have to "discover" something, or have it revealed to you, before you will believe it.
I agree with you too Pleroo.
The timing of each person's salvation is under God's sovereign control, just like it was for Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus.
Sooner or later, because of what Chriast accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen. This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
Our cooperation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us be His sovereign grace and making Jesus "choice" in our heart.
â€Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one’s will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a ‘free’ will, but an ‘enslaved’ will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind.â€
You are trying to veer the conversation into another UR discussion, but I have to tell you I have no interest in UR. It has been discussed to no end here and to me it is clearly a false teaching, so I am not interested in discussing it again for the umpteenth time.
Moderator cut: deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt
I agree with you too Pleroo.
The timing of each person's salvation is under God's sovereign control, just like it was for Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus.
Sooner or later, because of what Chriast accomplished by His death and resurrection, He is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen. This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."
Our cooperation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us be His sovereign grace and making Jesus "choice" in our heart.
Yes, I agree that a person's belief isn't a choice. Although I'm not a Christian, I can't seem to believe in atheism either.
There is one thing I do know, is that we have no choice in being born.
I also find it ironic that those that are so adamant to people being forced to love God, but have no problem with God forcing them to be tortured forever instead of UR/or ceasing to exist forever.
I personally also can't understand why a mass murderer can waltz into heaven if he becomes repentant (to the liking of those that promote the ET doctrine ALA Jack Chick etc), yet his victims who may not have get to suffer even more in the fundamentalist torture pit, if they hadn't done likewise before they were killed. Yet the UR version is called heretical
”Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one’s will to change.
Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.
It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a ‘free’ will, but an ‘enslaved’ will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind.”
One day every knee will bow and every one will confess Him to the glory of God the Father. There will be no other option, so if this is the case, why dismiss the teaching that God will eventually subject all things to Himself, including all hearts? I agree that many readily argue for God forcing unbelievers into an eternal hell yet are quick to argue that He cannot open all eyes, open all hearts, convince all of their need for Him, draw all back to Him, restore all to Himself. Is God blind or are unbelievers said to be blinded? God bless and peace.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-28-2012 at 04:55 PM..
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What if I don't want to be saved?
