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I've noticed that all Satan's religions put the focus on man instead of Christ at Calvary. It goes from a range of Christian legalism to New Age 7 chakras Kundalini "Awakening". A progressive move to add Mankind to the salvation/Justification progress.
The Gospel of Christ leaves man entirely out of the equation leaving them hopeless at saving themselves except believing on his Works in the atonement and resurrection. The emphasis being on the resurrection.
God's grace independent of Man's attempt to deserve it looks to be his rebuttal to Man's Pride which he hates. None of us deserve it. Never will. and can do nothing to save ourselves except fall down and grab his garment by faith.
Mark 5:24-34
24And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
It's interesting that this Woman had an issue with Blood. So do we. The reason the doctrine that we can do nothing to save ourselves even our obedience and good works is offensive is because of our Pride.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 02-27-2012 at 11:20 AM..
"he who stands firm to the end will be saved" Matthew 24:13
“And you, my son Solomon,...If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9
Solomon did not stand firm to the end.
OSAS theology is a cousin of a limited UR theology. The arguments for OSAS mimic UR for it makes certain verses "more truthful" than another.
Twin.spin, Matthew 24:13 has nothing to do with eternal salvation. It refers to the fact that Tribulational believers who physically survive to the end of the Tribulation will be delivered to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies.
1 Chronicles 28:9 is also not referring to eternal salvation but to the fact that if Solomon remained faithful to the Lord, his kingdom would endure forever.
1 Chron 28:7 'And I will establish his (Solomon's) kingdom forever, if he resolutely performs My ordinances, as is done now...9] 'As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you reject Him, He will reject you forever.
1 Chron 22:10 'He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever. This promise was conditioned on Solomon's continued obedience.
Solomon's disobedience resulted in Israel being split into two kingdoms after his death. The northern kingdom of Israel, and the southern kingdom of Judah.
This is what I mean. People use passages which are not understood and take them out context and used as 'proof texts' that salvation can be lost.
Eternal salvation cannot be lost. It is a free gift and is irrevocable.
The believers eternal security has nothing whatsoever to do with Universalism. All who die never having received Jesus Christ as Savior will be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire.
Twin, I can only lay out the facts for you with the hope that you will understand. But you must be willing to make an effort to understand if you are to. The grace of God absolutely rejects any human effort or merit, rejects any thing which is produced by human righteousness as a basis for eternal salvation.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-27-2012 at 12:04 PM..
I've noticed that all Satan's religions put the focus on man instead of Christ at Calvary. It goes from a range of Christian legalism to New Age 7 chakras Kundalini "Awakening". A progressive move to add Mankind to the salvation/Justification progress.
The Gospel of Christ leaves man entirely out of the equation leaving them hopeless at saving themselves except believing on his Works in the atonement and resurrection. The emphasis being on the resurrection.
God's grace independent of Man's attempt to deserve it looks to be his rebuttal to Man's Pride which he hates. None of us deserve it. Never will. and can do nothing to save ourselves except fall down and grab his garment by faith.
Mark 5:24-34
24And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.
25And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
It's interesting that this Woman had an issue with Blood. So do we. The reason the doctrine that we can do nothing to save ourselves even our obedience and good works is offensive is because of our Pride.
Yes. Because of pride and a desire to feel that they are worthy to be saved, many people try to put their oar in the water and attempt to help God row the boat of their eternal salvation. But only God can row that boat.
Twin.spin, Matthew 24:13 has nothing to do with eternal salvation. It refers to the fact that Tribulational believers who physically survive to the end of the Tribulation will be delivered to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies.
You could never get this idea from the text, only from coming to the text with such a framework/view already.
Is this text also talking about entering the millennial kingdom in mortal bodies??...
Take heed, brothers, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: while it is said, To-day if you shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For who, when they heard, did provoke? No, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? And with whom was he displeased forty years? Was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom he swore that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief (Hebrews 3:12-19)
Quote:
This is what I mean. People use passages which are not understood and take them out context and used as 'proof texts' that salvation can be lost.
Eternal salvation cannot be lost. It is a free gift and is irrevocable.
I think what you mean is that people use passages which they don't interpret the way you think they should be interpreted. It can be argued that you are also proof texting out of context in quoting Romans 11:29 as a verse referring to individual eternal salvation.
Blessings
Steph
Last edited by Steph1980; 02-27-2012 at 01:38 PM..
Well if St. Paul was not certain than I can't be either. St. Paul spoke about running the good race until the end so he knew one could lose their salvation.
Yes, God gives it freely and it is forever but it also depends on how we live our lives. You can't believe if someone murders, lies, steals and all the other vile things humans can do he would still go to heaven just because he believes in Jesus do you? That is quite naive.
You could never get this idea from the text, only from coming the text with such a framework/view already.
Is this text also talking about entering the millennial kingdom in mortal bodies??...
Matthew chapter 24 concerns the Tribulation. The church-age is not in view.
As I stated, verse 13 is referring to those believers who aren't martyred, but survive to the end of the Tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. The Millennium is the last dispensation of human history. In the Millennium, both mortal man and resurrected humanity will co-exist. The Millennum will begin with believers only. As the human race repopulates the earth, there will be many who don't believe in Christ as Savior even though He is physically ruling from the throne of David.
Now regarding Matt 24:13 ''But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved (sózó).''
In the New Testament the word sózó more often than not refers not to eternal salvation, but to temporal deliverance of some sort. In Matthew 24:13, it is referring to the physical deliverance of the Tribulational believer from the Tribulation into the Millennial kingdom.
C. I. Scofield commenting on Matthew 24:13 says...
'1(24:13) The reference is not to the salvation of the soul of the believer who endures persecution, but to his deliverance by the Lord's return.'
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by the Dallas Seminary Faculty, p.77 states...
'Those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in their physical bodies.'
The context of Matthew 24:13 is of the believer in the Tribulation. Not all believers will survive to the end of the Tribulation. Many will be martyred. But those who do survive to the end will enter into the Millennium still in their mortal bodies. Those Tribulational believers who were martyred will go into the Millennial kingdom in their resurrection bodies.
Quote:
I think what you mean is that people use passages which they don't interpret the way you think they should be interpreted. It can be argued that you are also proof texting out of context in quoting Romans 11:29 as a verse referring to individual eternal salvation.
Blessings
Steph
Comments and accusations such as this will not be replied to.
Romans 11:29 is explicate. But if you will not believe, then believe what you will.
I am interested in assuring believers who have ears to hear, that they cannot lose their salvation.
Well if St. Paul was not certain than I can't be either. St. Paul spoke about running the good race until the end so he knew one could lose their salvation.
Yes, God gives it freely and it is forever but it also depends on how we live our lives. You can't believe if someone murders, lies, steals and all the other vile things humans can do he would still go to heaven just because he believes in Jesus do you? That is quite naive.
Paul was referring to eternal rewards. Not to eternal salvation. It was Paul who said the the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
What the believer does after salvation has no bearing on his eternal salvation. It is not your righteousness by which you are saved, but rather, it is by means of God's own imputed Righteousness to those that believe in Christ that He declares the believer to be justified.
When a person believes on Christ for salvation, God imputes His very own Righteousness and eternal life to that person. And God does not take them back because of disobedience and sin on the part of the believer. The sin problem was taken care of once and for all, on the cross.
Matthew chapter 24 concerns the Tribulation. The church-age is not in view.
As I stated, verse 13 is referring to those believers who aren't martyred, but survive to the end of the Tribulation to go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. The Millennium is the last dispensation of human history. In the Millennium, both mortal man and resurrected humanity will co-exist. The Millennum will begin with believers only. As the human race repopulates the earth, there will be many who don't believe in Christ as Savior even though He is physically ruling from the throne of David.
Now regarding Matt 24:13 ''But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved (sózó).''
In the New Testament the word sózó more often than not refers not to eternal salvation, but to temporal deliverance of some sort. In Matthew 24:13, it is referring to the physical deliverance of the Tribulational believer from the Tribulation into the Millennial kingdom.
C. I. Scofield commenting on Matthew 24:13 says...
'1(24:13) The reference is not to the salvation of the soul of the believer who endures persecution, but to his deliverance by the Lord's return.'
The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by the Dallas Seminary Faculty, p.77 states...
'Those who remain faithful to the Lord until the end of that period of time will be saved, that is, delivered (Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one's eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. They will enter the kingdom in their physical bodies.'
The context of Matthew 24:13 is of the believer in the Tribulation. Not all believers will survive to the end of the Tribulation. Many will be martyred. But those who do survive to the end will enter into the Millennium still in their mortal bodies. Those Tribulational believers who were martyred will go into the Millennial kingdom in their resurrection bodies.
Comments and accusations such as this will not be replied to.
Romans 11:29 is explicate. But if you will not believe, then believe what you will.
I am interested in assuring believers who have ears to hear, that they cannot lose their salvation.
Mike, please explain this to me:
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
In your view, the ones who endure (survive) to the end are contrasted with the ones who don't survive (the martyrs).
Doesn't it seem to you that, looking at the text and not someone's commentary, the ones who endure to the end are actually being contrasted with the ones whose love has grown cold?
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
In your view, the ones who endure (survive) to the end are contrasted with the ones who don't survive (the martyrs).
Doesn't it seem to you that, looking at the text and not someone's commentary, the ones who endure to the end are actually being contrasted with the ones whose love has grown cold?
Blessings,
Steph
What you so casually dismiss as 'someones commentary (ies)', are written by trained and knowledgeable theologians who know what they are talking about.
You have heard of Scofield have you not? Does the Scofield Study Bible mean anything to you? While Scofield didn't know the Greek language, he was a genius in his summary of doctrine. Apart from a few erroneous footnotes, the Scofield Edition of the Bible is an excellent source of information.
Your assumption that those commentaries said what you think them to have said is wrong.
Because of the lawlessness that will occur in the tribulation, the unbeliever will be looking out for himself. Believers on the other hand will be characterized by their willingness to help others. Many will be martyred. But many will make it to the end of the Tribulation. As has been already said, the Tribulational believer who survives to the end of the Tribulation will enter the kingdom in his mortal body. The Tribulational believer who is martyred will enter the kingdom in his resurrection body.
As is the case at the great white throne judgment which will occur a thousand years later where the unbeliever will be judged on the basis of his works and thrown into the lake of fire forever, so also at the judgment of the nations when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation, unbelievers will be judged on the basis of their works which includes their unwillingness to help others, and thrown into the eternal fire (Matthew 25:41).
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-27-2012 at 03:24 PM..
What you so casually dismiss as 'someones commentary (ies)', are written by trained and knowledgeable theologians who know what they are talking about.
You have heard of Scofield have you not? Does the Scofield Study Bible mean anything to you? While Scofield didn't know the Greek language, he was a genius in his summary of doctrine. Apart from a few erroneous footnotes, the Scofield Edition of the Bible is an excellent source of information.
Your assumption that those commentaries said what you think them to have said is wrong.
Because of the lawlessness that will occur in the tribulation, the unbeliever will be looking out for himself. Believers on the other hand will be characterized by their willingness to help others. Many will be martyred. But many will make it to the end of the Tribulation. As has been already said, the Tribulational believer who survives to the end of the Tribulation will enter the kingdom in his mortal body. The Tribulational believer who is martyred will enter the kingdom in his resurrection body.
As is the case at the great white throne judgment which will occur a thousand years later where the unbeliever will be judged on the basis of his works and thrown into the lake of fire forever, so also at the judgment of the nations when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation, unbelievers will be judged on the basis of their works which includes their unwillingness to help others, and thrown into the eternal fire (Matthew 25:41).
No disrespect, but theologians and commentators can get it wrong (and yes, I have heard of Scofield).
Anyways, I don't feel that your response really addressed the text but rather, restated and elaborated on your position. Could you clarify...
Whose love will grow cold?
If it grows cold because of lawlessness, then was their love once hot?
Love for who?
Also, you didn't give me your take yet on the Hebrews text I quoted which also uses similar language about enduring (holding fast).
Blessings
Steph
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