Believer in Jesus Christ!!! Know that you are Eternally Secure (Revelation, sin)
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1 Corinthians 15:2 And though which you are saved if you hold fast the word I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain.
Not only were they standing on the gospel, but they were saved by it as well.
See. Rom. 1:16 - the gospel is God's power to save all who believe, both Jew and non-Jew
Notice that there is a if used by inspired writer relating to their being saved by the gospel; relating to their staying saved.
"If you hold fast the word," is the way Paul stated it. Your are saved by the gospel if you hold fast the word. That is another way of saying , "abide in the doctrine of Christ " 2 John 9 .
You are saved by the gospel - the doctrine of Christ, if you hold fast the word; abide in the doctrine.,otherwise, you lose God, and "fall from grace."
This fits precisely what the beloved John wrote in 2 John 9 . He said that whoever continues in - abides in - the doctrine of Christ - has both the Father and son. One who does not "abide in the word " - hold fast the word" - he / she believes in vain. the faith of such a person is worthless at that point.
Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened , who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Can you see the writers point ? Those who chose to fall away and not go on to maturity in Christ shall find it impossible to be brought back to repentance (to be able to make up the mind to return to the Lord and be true to him )
DXCC, as I mentioned in the first post, people misunderstand passages and then try to use them as 'proof texts' to show that eternal salvation can be lost. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, and Scripture shows quite clearly that the believers eternal salvation cannot be lost.
1.) Heb 6:4 has nothing to do with the possibility of loss of salvation, which is impossible, but rather is referring to the fact that when a believer falls away from his spiritual growth and backslides, it is almost impossible to renew his spiritual advance.
The context of Hebrews 6 concerned Jewish believers who were being pressured by other Jews to revert back to the practices of Judaism. They were being pressured to revert back to performing animal sacrifices, which in effect was recrucifying Jesus Christ.
The believers referred to in Hebrews 6 were being exhorted to not fall away from the doctrines they had learned. That is why the writer of Hebrews exhorted his readers to leave the elementary teaching about the Christ, and press forward to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works (Judaism) and of faith toward God.
This has nothing to do with the issue of eternal salvation, but of the believer continuing his spiritual advance.
The author of Hebrews was telling his readers that if they abandoned the doctrines they had learned, they would have to relearn them all over again, although the writer of Hebrews had as he previously said, held out little hope that that they would relearn them.
The writer wanted them to press forward, God permitting.
2.) 1 Corinthians 15:2 is not saying that the believer must continue to hold fast to the word or he will lose his eternal salvation.
You have to understand that the believer's salvation is spoken of in three different phases.
***Phase One salvation or justification: The believer has been saved once and for all at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone. In phase one, the believer has been saved from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death. In phase one salvation, the believer is born again or regenerated. He is given eternal life. (Luke 7:50; Ephesians 2:8-9)
***Phase Two salvation: The believer is being saved (delivered) from the power of sin. This is ongoing salvation and refers to the believers sanctification in an Experiential sense, rather than in a Positional sense. Positionally, the believer is sanctified at the moment he believes in Christ (Phase one salvation. Justification and sanctification are two different things). Phase two salvation refers to the believers spiritual growth and advancement.
Every day that the believer walks by means of the Holy Spirit, every day that he abides in Christ, every day that he is growing spiritually, he is being saved from the power of sin.(Rom 6:14; 2 Cor 3:18; Gal 2:19-20; Phil 1:19, Phil 2:12-13)
***Phase Three Salvation: The believer will be saved (delivered) from the presence of sin. From the presence of the old sin nature. The sin nature resides in the body. At death, the believer leaves his body behind and goes into the presence of the Lord in heaven. And when in the future, the believers body is resurrected, it will be a body of incorruptability and free from the sin nature. (Rom 8:18-23; Rom 13:11;1 Cor 15:42-44)
1 Corinithians 15:2 is not referring to phase one salvation, but is referring to phase two salvation. The believers Experiential sanctification.
1 Cor 15:1 'Now I make known to you (recall for your benefit) brethren, the gospel which I preached (in the past) to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2] by which also you are being saved (present tense; Phase two salvation), if ('if' is in the Greek first class condition which assumes that they are) you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
1 Cor 15:1 'in which you stand' is a reference to standing in grace orientation - post salvation truth pertaining to the believers spiritual life. The believer must stand by means of the gospel. Paul is saying that by standing on an understanding of the gospel you gain an understanding of grace.
Grace orientation is the basis, the foundation for spiritual growth and advance in the believers spiritual life. The beginning of grace orientation is an understanding of the gospel.
Grace is the policy of the Justice of God in blessing mankind based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Grace means that God has done everything that is required for your eternal salvation, and forbids any human effort by which eternal salvation would be earned. You have phase one salvation by grace, though faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The believer having previously been eternally saved (Phase one salvation), then experientially (Phase two salvation) stands on the gospel. The gospel is the foundation on which the believer functions when he is in fellowship with God under the control of the Holy Spirit and executing the Christian way of life.
1 Cor 15:2 'if you hold fast.' Paul is assuming that those he is addressing will continue to hold fast to their understanding of the gospel which will be the basis for their spiritual growth.
'Unless you believed in vain.' Unless this faith doesn't achieve its purpose. If you don't hold fast to your understanding of the Gospel, then you short circuit your spiritual growth. This was the problem with the Galatians.
Gal 3:3 'Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4] Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it was in vain?
Biography:
Before coming to West Houston Bible Church, Dr. Dean was the Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. Prior to that he had served churches in both the Dallas and Houston, Texas areas and has over 35 years of pastoral experience.
Dr. Dean is a much sought after Bible teacher both in the United States and overseas. He serves on the adjunct faculty of Faith Evangelical Seminary and is the Chairman of the Governing Board for Chafer Theological Seminary.
'Dr. Dean trained for the ministry at Dallas Theological Seminary where he earned a Th.M. in Hebrew and Old Testament Studies and later returned to pursue a Ph.D. in theological studies with an emphasis in Historical Theology. He also earned an M.A. in Philosophy from the University of St. Thomas (1987) and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Faith Evangelical Seminary (2002). In 1988 he was recognized as an Outstanding Young Man of America, and in 1989 was listed in the Who's Who in American Christian Leadership .
His academic training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, philosophy, and history enables him to study the Bible in the original languages and show how these eternal truths are as vital today as always.' Dean Bible Ministries
3.) 2 John 9. Whenever you see the phrase 'abide in Christ,' this refers not to phase one salvation in which the believer is placed by the Holy Spirit into an eternal and unbreakable union with Jesus Christ (1 Cor 12:13; Gal 3:26-28), but to the believers day to day relationship or rapport with Jesus Christ which is dependent on being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18). But the believer's experiential walk is also a matter of having the right doctrine. Without correct doctrine the believer can not have fellowship with Christ, cannot abide in Christ, anymore than he can if he has sin in his life.
2 John 1:8 'Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
John's readers had just been warned about possible loss of reward.
2 John 1:9 'Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching (sound doctrine) of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.
John is not talking about a loss of eternal salvation, but to doctrinal deviation on the part of the believer with its accompanying disobedience.
For John, the believer who abides or continues in the teaching of Christ makes his home there. The believer who deviates from sound doctrine leaves God behind. Again, that does not refer to loss of salvation, but to a loss of grace orientation and to a fall into heresy.
Phase One Salvation - (Justification resulting in being born again - regenerated - given eternal life, and 'Positional sanctification') is irrevocable.
Phase Two Salvation - the believer's spiritual life after having believed on Christ, demands growing to maturity in order to be 'Experientially sanctified'.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-02-2012 at 12:15 PM..
Of course, many would like to say that to require "enduring to the end" for salvation is akin to taking credit for salvation. But IMHO these folks unfortunately fail to understand the true nature of saving grace... that God's grace for salvation is not dispensed once when we first believe and then 'do your best, folks, but if you fail miserably, not to worry'! No! God's grace is POWERFUL and is made fully available to us in the exercise of faith - from faith TO faith - His grace delivers us continually from sin (which is the power of death). God has always desired true righteousness inwardly, not just a cloak of Jesus' righteousness over our filthiness! And His grace has made this possible! Walking by faith is no more "meritorious" than having that initial faith to believe in Jesus is!
The salt is not in reference to salvation, it is in reference to fellowship and gifts. Your salvation can never be taken away.
I think mike555 explained mat 24:13 yesterday, so there is no need to get into that again.
Every believers works will tested and some are burned up and those people will suffer a loss, but they are still saved.
Yes he did, but the premise is still wrong. Ultimatly, OSAS is a limited version of UR.
There has been no "child like" explanation forth coming, to put it kindly the explanations have been very Shakespearian. It's not to hard to understand if the Word is allowed to speak for itself... for even a child who loses a toy understands what the practical implication of "loses" means.
Matthew 24:13 is obvious to what Jesus meant because one can not claim that Solomon was "never a believer" nor that God spoke out of character to Solomon. All indication points to since that Solomon is not included as men of faith, that Solomon died as an unbeliever.
That is why God spoke to him the way He did. Solomon eventually rejected God and was not saved inspite of his earlier years when he did. A person himself can "lose it saltiness", "not remain firm to the end", "lose the reward".
Yes he did, but the premise is still wrong. Ultimatly, OSAS is a limited version of UR.
There has been no "child like" explanation forth coming, to put it kindly the explanations have been very Shakespearian. It's not to hard to understand if the Word is allowed to speak for itself... for even a child who loses a toy understands what the practical implication of "loses" means.
Matthew 24:13 is obvious to what Jesus meant because one can not claim that Solomon was "never a believer" nor that God spoke out of character to Solomon. All indication points to since that Solomon is not included as men of faith, that Solomon died as an unbeliever.
That is why God spoke to him the way He did. Solomon eventually rejected God and was not saved inspite of his earlier years when he did. A person himself can "lose it saltiness", "not remain firm to the end", "lose the reward".
Twin.spin, Solomon did not lose his eternal salvation. And though you didn't mention him, neither did king Saul.
Solomon is the author of Ecclesiastes. In Ecclesiastes Solomon details his life 'under the sun.' His conclusion after his exeriences was given in Ecclesiastes 12:13 'The conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14] For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
Neither did king Saul lose his eternal salvation. When God allowed the dead prophet Samuel to be brought up in a vision from 'Abraham's Bosom or 'Paradise,' he told Saul that the very next day he would be with him. (1 Samuel 28:19). Saul would die the next day and be with Samuel who was in Abraham's Bosom - Paradise.
Even a child should be able to understand that a free gift is a free gift, and that eternal life being a free gift, is not taken back by God who has said that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
All Scripture relating to the subject of eternal salvation and the integrity of God must be viewed and understood. You can't take a verse here and there and attempt to use it to refute the other Scriptures which show that God does not revoke eternal life.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-02-2012 at 01:37 PM..
Twin.spin, Solomon did not lose his eternal salvation. And though you didn't mention him, neither did king Saul.
Solomon is the author of Ecclesiastes. In Ecclesiastes Solomon details his life 'under the sun.' His conclusion after his exeriences was given in Ecclesiastes 12:13 'The conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. 14] For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
Neither did king Saul lose his eternal salvation. When God allowed the dead prophet Samuel to be brought up in a vision from 'Abraham's Bosom or 'Paradise,' he told Saul that the very next day he would be with him. (1 Samuel 28:19). Saul would die the next day and be with Samuel who was in Abraham's Bosom - Paradise.
Even a child should be able to understand that a free gift is a free gift, and that eternal life being a free gift, is not taken back by God who has said that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
All Scripture relating to the subject of eternal salvation and the integrity of God must be viewed and understood. You can't take a verse here and there and attempt to use it to refute the other Scriptures which show that God does not revoke eternal life.
Mike,
I agree "You can't take a verse here and there" to fit a certian theology. With that being said (and agreed to) one finally has to say that you fundamentally disagree with Jesus when he speaks about the sower and the seed or Paul's concern for the Galations (Galations 3&4).
Read both chapters and you'll see that the Galations were being warned about that they are in danger of losing their salvation and going to hell by the end of chapter four. The Galations were forfeiting "saved by faith alone" to "saved by works". And he equated that to going back into slavery under sin. The result of their actions would end up by:
“Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
The Galations was going from being a "free womans son" back to a "slave woman's son" and Paul was warning that they will never have eternal life or as Paul phrases it as " will never share in the inheritance".
In short, God says those who stop believing "will never share in the inheritance" and you say they will.
By God saying "get rid of slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance " is the equivalent as Jesus saying "Depart from me you evildoers.. I never knew you".
Getting "ride of" by God does not end in being saved.
Last edited by twin.spin; 03-02-2012 at 04:28 PM..
Mike,
I agree "You can't take a verse here and there" to fit a certian theology. With that being said (and agreed to) one finally has to say that you fundamentally disagree with Jesus when he speaks about the sower and the seed or Paul's concern for the Galations (Galations 3&4).
Read both chapters and you'll see that the Galations were being warned about that they are in danger of losing their salvation and going to hell by the end of chapter four. The Galations were forfeiting "saved by faith alone" to "saved by works". And he equated that to going back into slavery under sin. The result of their actions would end up by:
“Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.â€
The Galations was going from being a "free womans son" back to a "slave woman's son" and Paul was warning that they will never have eternal life or as Paul phrases it as " will never share in the inheritance".
In short, God says those who stop believing "will never share in the inheritance" and you say they will.
By God saying "get rid of slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance " is the equivalent as Jesus saying "Depart from me you evildoers.. I never knew you".
Getting "ride of" by God does not end in being saved.
Agree! However... As long as some always interpret "inheritance" as "rewards for faithfulness" (which are completely separate from salvation), they will never concede that what you are saying is correct.
Of course, many would like to say that to require "enduring to the end" for salvation is akin to taking credit for salvation. But IMHO these folks unfortunately fail to understand the true nature of saving grace... that God's grace for salvation is not dispensed once when we first believe and then 'do your best, folks, but if you fail miserably, not to worry'! No! God's grace is POWERFUL and is made fully available to us in the exercise of faith - from faith TO faith - His grace delivers us continually from sin (which is the power of death). God has always desired true righteousness inwardly, not just a cloak of Jesus' righteousness over our filthiness! And His grace has made this possible! Walking by faith is no more "meritorious" than having that initial faith to believe in Jesus is!
Praise the Lord
To be so close to the truth and yet be unable to see it because of the blind faith in the "precepts and doctrines of men." Mike is correct that our salvation cannot be lost . . . but it is because we had nothing to do with it. Jesus took care of that for us all. But that does not mean there is nothing for us to do. That would suggest that God has no purpose for us to exist other than as Mike seems to believe to serve His vanity. Of course there is something for us to achieve and it is a loving Spirit in harmony (resonant) with Christ's love for God and us . . . however imperfect. That is our sanctification and is achieved through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't.
Mike,
I agree "You can't take a verse here and there" to fit a certian theology. With that being said (and agreed to) one finally has to say that you fundamentally disagree with Jesus when he speaks about the sower and the seed or Paul's concern for the Galations (Galations 3&4).
Read both chapters and you'll see that the Galations were being warned about that they are in danger of losing their salvation and going to hell by the end of chapter four. The Galations were forfeiting "saved by faith alone" to "saved by works". And he equated that to going back into slavery under sin. The result of their actions would end up by:
“Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.â€
The Galations was going from being a "free womans son" back to a "slave woman's son" and Paul was warning that they will never have eternal life or as Paul phrases it as " will never share in the inheritance".
In short, God says those who stop believing "will never share in the inheritance" and you say they will.
By God saying "get rid of slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance " is the equivalent as Jesus saying "Depart from me you evildoers.. I never knew you".
Getting "ride of" by God does not end in being saved.
In the parable of the sower and the seed (Matthew 13:18), only the one mentioned in verse 19 is an unbeliever. He heard the gospel but did not receive it.
The one mentioned in verses 20-21 heard and received the gospel and is saved. He fell away from his faith when affliction and persecution came his way, but did not and could not fall away from his eternal salvation. 'Falling away' never means loss of eternal life.
The one mentioned in verse 22 is also a believer, but he allowed the worries of the word and the things of the world to crowd out the word, and he was unfruitful. Being unfruitful never means a loss of eternal salvation. It simply results in a loss of reward. That's why in 2 John 8, John cautions his readers about the possible loss of reward. 'Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.' The lack of fruit means a loss of reward. Not a loss of eternal life.
The one mentioned in verse 23 was the believer who was well grounded in the word. He understood it, grew spiritually and produced much fruit.
Jesus Christ was not teaching that eternal life can be taken away. The grace and character of God makes the loss of eternal life impossible.
As for the Galatians, I mentioned them in post #63 under section '2.) 1 Corinthians 15:2 is not saying that the believer must continue to hold fast to the word or he will lose his eternal salvation.' Neither the Galatians or anyone else were or is in danger of losing their eternal salvation.
Agree! However... As long as some always interpret "inheritance" as "rewards for faithfulness" (which are completely separate from salvation), they will never concede that what you are saying is correct.
John cautioned his readers about the possibility of loss of reward.
2 John 8 'Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.'
In the Parable of money usage, Jesus taught that on His return, He would reward the faithful commensurate with their service to Him, and His enemies would be judged before Him.
Luke 19:11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. [12] He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. [13] So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
[14] "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'
[15] "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
[16] "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'
[17] " 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
[18] "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'
[19] "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
[20] "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth.
[21] I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
[22] "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow?
[23] Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
[24] "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
[25] " 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'
[26] "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. [27] But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' "
Some will rule over ten cities. Some will rule over five cities. This illustrates the difference in rewards among the faithful believers.
All believers on Jesus Christ have eternal life, but not all believers are going to receive equal rewards and privileges.
Last edited by Michael Way; 03-02-2012 at 09:31 PM..
John cautioned his readers about the possibility of loss of reward.
2 John 8 'Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.'
In the Parable of money usage, Jesus taught that on His return, He would reward the faithful commensurate with their service to Him, and His enemies would be judged before Him.
Luke 19:11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. [12] He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. [13] So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
[14] "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'
[15] "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
[16] "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'
[17] " 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
[18] "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'
[19] "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
[20] "Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. [21] I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
[22] "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? [23] Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
[24] "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
[25] " 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'
[26] "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. [27] But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.' "
Some will rule over ten cities. Some will rule over five cities. This illustrates the difference in rewards among the faithful believers.
All believers on Jesus Christ have eternal life, but not all believers are going to receive equal rewards and privileges.
Mike, what about the 3rd servant in this parable?
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