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A good Christian could still be a Christian if the Bible is infallible. Why put all your eggs in one basket?
Why base an entire belief system in the assumption that the Bible is the pure word of God? That creates a situation where one needs to defend the writings that do not make sense. In fact, it makes God look less than perfect. It also creates a fragile belief system based in just one book which is questioned all the time by others.
A good Christian should still be a Christian even if there was no Bible.
I think the kind of thinking which says "We don't need the Bible" is the kind of thinking inspired by the Roman Catholic church which also inpires priestcraft. Take all bibles out of the hands of the common person and let us (priestcraft) guide your lives. After all, the Bible is not the word of God anyway (according to them.)
Here is what the writers of the New Testament say about the Scriptures:
(Mat 15:6) by no means shall he be honoring his father.' And you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition.
(Mar 7:13) invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you give over. And many such like things you are doing."
(Luk 5:1) Now it occurred, as the throng is importuning Him and hearing the word of God, He also was standing beside lake Gennesaret,
(Luk 8:11) Now this is the parable: The seed is the word of God."
(Luk 8:21) Now He, answering, said to them, "My mother and My brethren are these who are hearing the word of God and doing it."
(Luk 11:28) Yet He said, "Indeed then, happy are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!"
(Joh 10:35) If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled),
(Act 4:31) And at their beseeching, shaken was the place in which they were gathered, and they are all filled with the holy spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."
(Act 6:2) Now the twelve, calling the multitude of the disciples to them, say, "It is not pleasing for us, leaving the word of God, to be serving at tables."
(Act 6:7) And the word of God grows, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem multiplied tremendously. Besides, a vast throng of the priests obeyed the faith."
(Act 8:14) Now the apostles in Jerusalem, hearing that Samaria has received the word of God, dispatch to them Peter and John,
(Act 11:1) Now the apostles and the brethren who are of Judea hear that the nations also receive the word of God.
(Act 12:24) Yet the word of God grows and was multiplied.
(Act 13:5) And, coming to be in Salamis, they announced the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. Now they had John also as a deputy."
(Act 13:7) who was with the proconsul Sergius Paul, an intelligent man. He, calling to him Barnabas and Saul, seeks to hear the word of God."
(Act 13:46) Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations."
(Act 17:13) Now as the Jews from Thessalonica know that in Berea also the word of God was announced by Paul, they came there also, agitating and disturbing the throngs."
(Act 18:11) Now he is seated one year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."
(Rom 9:6) Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;"
(1Co 14:36) Or from you came out the word of God? Or to you only did it attain?
(2Co 2:17) For we are not as the majority, who are peddling the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God in Christ, are we speaking."
(2Co 4:2) But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in God's sight."
(Php 1:14) and the majority of the brethren, having confidence in the Lord as to my bonds, are more exceedingly daring to speak the word of God fearlessly."
(Col 1:25) of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God -"
(1Th 2:13) And therefore we also are thanking God unintermittingly that, in accepting the word heard from us, from God you receive, not the word of men, but, according as it truly is, the word of God, which is operating also in you who are believing."
(1Ti 4:5) for it is hallowed through the word of God and pleading.
(2Ti 2:9) in which I am suffering evil unto bonds as a malefactor - but the word of God is not bound.
(Tit 2:5) sane, chaste, domestic, good, subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed."
(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."
(Heb 13:7) Be remembering those of your leaders who speak to you the word of God, contemplating the sequel of their behavior, whose faith be imitating.
(1Pe 1:23) having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,
(2Pe 3:5) For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"
(1Jn 2:14) I write to you, fathers, seeing that you know Him Who is from the beginning. I write to you, youths, seeing that you are strong and the word of God is remaining in you, and you have conquered the wicked one."
(Rev 1:2) who testifies to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, whatever he perceived."
(Rev 1:9) I, John, your brother and joint participant in the affliction and kingdom and endurance in Jesus Christ, came to be in the island called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ."
(Rev 6:9) And when It opens the fifth seal, I perceived underneath the altar the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had."
(Rev 20:4) And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years."
I think the kind of thinking which says "We don't need the Bible" is the kind of thinking inspired by the Roman Catholic church which also inpires priestcraft. Take all bibles out of the hands of the common person and let us (priestcraft) guide your lives. After all, the Bible is not the word of God anyway (according to them.)
Here is what the writers of the New Testament say about the Scriptures:
(Mat 15:6) by no means shall he be honoring his father.' And you invalidate the word of God because of your tradition.
(Mar 7:13) invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you give over. And many such like things you are doing."
(Luk 5:1) Now it occurred, as the throng is importuning Him and hearing the word of God, He also was standing beside lake Gennesaret,
(Luk 8:11) Now this is the parable: The seed is the word of God."
(Luk 8:21) Now He, answering, said to them, "My mother and My brethren are these who are hearing the word of God and doing it."
(Luk 11:28) Yet He said, "Indeed then, happy are those who are hearing the word of God and maintaining it!"
(Joh 10:35) If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the scripture can not be annulled),
(Act 4:31) And at their beseeching, shaken was the place in which they were gathered, and they are all filled with the holy spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."
(Act 6:2) Now the twelve, calling the multitude of the disciples to them, say, "It is not pleasing for us, leaving the word of God, to be serving at tables."
(Act 6:7) And the word of God grows, and the number of the disciples in Jerusalem multiplied tremendously. Besides, a vast throng of the priests obeyed the faith."
(Act 8:14) Now the apostles in Jerusalem, hearing that Samaria has received the word of God, dispatch to them Peter and John,
(Act 11:1) Now the apostles and the brethren who are of Judea hear that the nations also receive the word of God.
(Act 12:24) Yet the word of God grows and was multiplied.
(Act 13:5) And, coming to be in Salamis, they announced the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. Now they had John also as a deputy."
(Act 13:7) who was with the proconsul Sergius Paul, an intelligent man. He, calling to him Barnabas and Saul, seeks to hear the word of God."
(Act 13:46) Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations."
(Act 17:13) Now as the Jews from Thessalonica know that in Berea also the word of God was announced by Paul, they came there also, agitating and disturbing the throngs."
(Act 18:11) Now he is seated one year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."
(Rom 9:6) Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;"
(1Co 14:36) Or from you came out the word of God? Or to you only did it attain?
(2Co 2:17) For we are not as the majority, who are peddling the word of God, but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God in Christ, are we speaking."
(2Co 4:2) But we spurn the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor yet adulterating the word of God, but, by manifestation of the truth, commending ourselves to every man's conscience in God's sight."
(Php 1:14) and the majority of the brethren, having confidence in the Lord as to my bonds, are more exceedingly daring to speak the word of God fearlessly."
(Col 1:25) of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God -"
(1Th 2:13) And therefore we also are thanking God unintermittingly that, in accepting the word heard from us, from God you receive, not the word of men, but, according as it truly is, the word of God, which is operating also in you who are believing."
(1Ti 4:5) for it is hallowed through the word of God and pleading.
(2Ti 2:9) in which I am suffering evil unto bonds as a malefactor - but the word of God is not bound.
(Tit 2:5) sane, chaste, domestic, good, subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed."
(Heb 4:12) For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart."
(Heb 13:7) Be remembering those of your leaders who speak to you the word of God, contemplating the sequel of their behavior, whose faith be imitating.
(1Pe 1:23) having been regenerated, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, living and permanent,
(2Pe 3:5) For they want to be oblivious of this, that there were heavens of old, and an earth cohering out of water and through water, by the word of God;"
(1Jn 2:14) I write to you, fathers, seeing that you know Him Who is from the beginning. I write to you, youths, seeing that you are strong and the word of God is remaining in you, and you have conquered the wicked one."
(Rev 1:2) who testifies to the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, whatever he perceived."
(Rev 1:9) I, John, your brother and joint participant in the affliction and kingdom and endurance in Jesus Christ, came to be in the island called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ."
(Rev 6:9) And when It opens the fifth seal, I perceived underneath the altar the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had."
(Rev 20:4) And I perceived thrones, and they are seated on them, and judgment was granted to them. And the souls of those executed because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who do not worship the wild beast or its image, and did not get the emblem on their forehead and on their hand- they also live and reign with Christ a thousand years."
You've addressed a number of topics - Let's deal with one issue that seems to cause you great 'heartburn' .... Using one scripture to explain/verify/affirm another. Your position seems to be (?) that God's inspiration should allow every single verse to stand on its own.
While God’s Word is perfect and able to stand on it’s own, it is written for a diversity of people and situations. No single passage applies to every situation, plus people often try to interpret a single passage many different ways – or even to build an entire theology on one passage ---to prove whatever point ‘they’ are trying to make. Thus, if our goal is to truly understand God’s Word, as God intended for it to be understand, we can only do that in God’s Word. This principle is known as “building precept upon precept.” It is also the basis for “rightly dividing the Word of Truth” and depends on “God bearing witness to Himself” (and not depending on human testimony)
Fortunately, for our benefit, God repeats His truth and principles over and over in many different ways, across different situations and generations! We therefore, are not limited to our own feeble understanding, but, can understand, affirm and verify God’s truth in the light of passages that verify and affirm themselves. It only gets complicated when people try to ‘force fit’ God’s simple Word (which children can often more readily understand than adults) into their own private interpretation. But, even there, scripture tells us that “No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.”
(Those who arrogantly declare that the Bible is NOT the Word of God and was only written by men --- are a big part of the problem --- They have no affirming foundation for their proclamation ... yet, often make it with such 'blind assurance' that it leads those who do not know better astray. They will be held fully accountable for their foolishness).
Thanks for your great response.
1) To answer your first question in bold, I actually am saying that I think each verse should be able to be understood in the BOOK it occurs in, rather than having to be cross-referenced with other books. In some cases 15 or more years separates the books, and I don't believe a perfect God would allow even that amount of time to go by with such ambiguity...considering eternal salvation is at stake.
2) Regarding the next part of your response (in bold green above)...that's not what I mean at all. It's fine to have as many scriptures in there as you like, for as many situations as you like. I don't have any problem with that.
I believe that any point that the author of a book was trying to make should be made perfectly clear in that book, and Matthew shouldn't have to wait for Luke, or someone else to try and come along and clarify what another author meant. Just the same way that my point #1 above was not made perfectly clear in my original post...a different person should not have to come along and explain it. A divinely inspired writing should not be fallible like that.
3) AS far as the next point goes (highlighted in blue)...I totally agree with "building precept upon precept." The part that I disagree with is STARTING WITH AN ASSUMPTION OF INERRANCY, because you cannot correctly build precept upon precept if you do that. you can never prove or disprove whether it's perfect or not if you just simply pretend that it is, and don't really look at it. IF the Bible, as currently compiled, is truly the inerrant Word of God, it should be able to STAND ON ITS OWN, WITHOUT HAVING TO FORCE INERRANCY UPON IT. I am also making the claim here (and this is the entire point of what I'm saying), that making inerrancy a given is what has led to all the division in Christianity. It allows different churches to arbitrate differently regarding the scriptures, because the problems that are found (i.e. "errors" or "contradictions in theology") are cirumvented differently by different sects. If we were to use PURE LOGIC, and take away the "assumed inerrancy" stance, we could in fact get to the bottom of all these arguments, and find out which books really are truly inspired, and which are creating problems. Trust me...as long as the "inerrancy" concept is forced on the Bible, the division will never end.
4) Regarding the last highlighted part, in brown, yes I totally agree! Yet the division exists. So since those who insist the Bible is inerrant are so confident, let's lift that "forced inerrancy" from the argument, and stop reverse-engineering things to all fit together, and then see where it stands. Those who really believe it's a perfect book should easily have the courage to do that. And...what better way is there to prove how perfect it is?
Source? It is a historic fact that the books of the Bible were written by men. In fact the books of the Bible have tiles such as Mark, Luke, etc. The other books are letters written by men.
These men were inspired by God to write, however, they colored the writing with their own points of view. That is why we have contradictions.
God did not dictate the men what to write word by word, so the Bible is not the word of God. For example I don't believe God would write it is OK to kill a gay man. Killing a gay man is the idea of the writer of Leviticus.
We really do not understand God very well and as of now the word of God is our interpretation of the Bible. Sadly many folks have different interpretations.
The Bible is not infallible. It is simply a guide for Christianity.
I would still be a Christian if there was no Bible.
Awesome post dude. I agree with what you are saying. Your statement in bold is why the Gospels differ on so many details and facts. The message is divine, yes. However, the authors were human. And THIS is why it has taken so many books of the Bible, over so many years, to finally get the intended "message" out. No one single author was ever able to do it very well by himself...but in the end...I believe that the goal was accomplished.
It's THE WAY PEOPLE USE THE BIBLE, that is the problem. It's misuse has caused division, and a lot of false teachings to go around.
Awesome post dude. I agree with what you are saying. Your statement in bold is why the Gospels differ on so many details and facts. The message is divine, yes. However, the authors were human. And THIS is why it has taken so many books of the Bible, over so many years, to finally get the intended "message" out. No one single author was ever able to do it very well by himself...but in the end...I believe that the goal was accomplished.
It's THE WAY PEOPLE USE THE BIBLE, that is the problem. It's misuse has caused division, and a lot of false teachings to go around.
The four accounts do not contradict each other. Of course the authors were human. Kangaroos didn't write the four accounts. But what you are failing to note is that those writers were filled with God's Holy Spirit.
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
2 Tim. 3
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
And Peter,
2 Peter 3
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Most importantly, Jesus quoted Scripture.
Highlighted in Blue: I agree with this. But there can be only One Word of God...and yet there are 30-40 sects of Christianity, all differing with one another. So how does real life bear out what Paul said to be true? The Spirit at work in those who believe created 30 or more sects of Christianity? Something must be wrong.
Highlighted in Green: I agree with this also. But this does not mean that the Bible is perfect. If all scripture were Perfect, as you think this verse claims, then each verse should be understandable and complete in the BOOK IN WHICH IT OCCURS, which is one of my main points. If you have to turn to Luke to explain Matthew, and if Matthew fails to make it clear in his own book...then "all scripture" cannot said to be perfect.
Highligted in Brown: This is a very contested book. But even if we accept it..it is actually the same point I'm making! By starting with "inerrancy" as a given...and if the book is actually NOT 100% perfect, it would lead to the distortion and perversion of meanings...and of course, the division that exists today. It is EXACTLY my point. Once again, if the book is so perfect, it should be able to stand up to the test without forcing inerrancy on it, and reverse-engineering (perverting, distoring) its verses.
Last edited by TwoWitnesses; 03-06-2012 at 02:57 PM..
TwoWitnesses,
I did read your entire post, but I agree it was way too long so I will just address what I preceive as your main point: why does one passage need to be confirmed by another one?
Let me ask you this? Why do you think God made the law that at the mouth of 2-3 witnesses a thing shall be established?
I'm sure you know/can figure out the answer. It's so the truth is found out.
The Scriptures are no different. When one is searching about a particular subject to find the whole truth one must read all the passages that speak of this subject.
And of course we need to look to the OT to understand the NT. The first usage of a word often gives more clarity as to it's meaning, also.
It's sort of like the old cop show when Sergeant Friday would say, "Just getting the facts, ma'am."
I like to think of the Scriptures as a giant puzzle with pieces scattered all around. We need all the 'facts' [pieces] to find the whole truth, and put the puzzle together. God wrote it that way, BTW, and that's why He says: "study to show yourself approved. A workman able to rightly divide....."
To answer your question highlighted in blue above, I think that's fine...establishing something with 2-3 witnesses.
The point I am making is I think any given scripture should be "Able to be understood in its BOOK OF ORIGIN". It is perfectly fine if 2 other authors want to chime in later and add something. As long as no one makes the argument that the 2nd and 3rd references are actually needed to EVEN UNDERSTAND THE FIRST ONE PROPERLY. Hopefully this clarifies what I meant.
Regarding your point in Green...that is a great concept, and one that I used to believe and accept also. And maybe I could still accept it. It's just that when I see all of the division and arguments, I feel that a "change of strategy and approach" is necessary at this point in time...to sort out that puzzle better! By forcing INERRANCY on the Bible as a given...the puzzle is never solved!!!
Peter, who walked with Jesus, confirmed Paul's writings as Scripture.
IMO, it is very dangerous to make judgments on what Scripture is from God & what is not.
Once again, Peter confirmed Paul's writings.
You are correct! And yet the book could not be written without that being an absolute necessity. And unfortunately...it didn't happen until the 4th century AD when the judgments were made. So 300+ years went by with people not having the proper guidance of Scripture.
I think it is equally dangerous for all these false doctrines going around because people twist the meanings in so many directions.
God's word is infallible. Man is not! Therein lies the problem.
Katie
Right Katie!
And that's why we don't need to force the issue of inerrancy on the Bible. It should be able to stand up to the test without the reverse-engineering I have been talking about! Then we'll find out all the correct doctrines.
Highlighted in Blue: I agree with this. But there can be only One Word of God...and yet there are 30-40 sects of Christianity, all differing with one another. So how does real life bear out what Paul said to be true? The Spirit at work in those who believe created 30 or more sects of Christianity? Something must be wrong.
Highlighted in Green: I agree with this also. But this does not mean that the Bible is perfect. If all scripture were Perfect, as you think this verse claims, then each verse should be understandable and complete in the BOOK IN WHICH IT OCCURS, which is one of my main points. If you have to turn to Luke to explain Matthew, and if Matthew fails to make it clear in his own book...then "all scripture" cannot said to be perfect.
Highligted in Brown: This is a very contested book. But even if we accept it..it is actually the same point I'm making! By starting with "inerrancy" as a given...and if the book is actually NOT 100% perfect, it would lead to the distortion and perversion of meanings...and of course, the division that exists today. It is EXACTLY my point. Once again, if the book is so perfect, it should be able to stand up to the test without forcing inerrancy on it, and then reverse-engineering (perverting, distoring) its verses.
The different denominations all believe Christ is our Savior. What we differ on is trivial, & many times has to do with style of worship.
Yes, I believe God's word is perfect & without error. Skeptics will never make sense of it because they do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them. Much of Scripture is difficult & takes much study, prayer, & spiritual maturity to understand. I'm only beginning to understand it & I'm 51 years old!
On the contrary! What is really dangerous is excluding parts you don't like. The Bible has stood the test of time & continues to point people to God.
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