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Old 03-06-2012, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
70 posts, read 209,750 times
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ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART."(Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men."


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE (of mankind).

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Last edited by Alter2Ego; 03-06-2012 at 01:54 AM..
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:36 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART."(Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men."


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE (of mankind).

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?
Hades is not the grave. On the cross Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. The grave is not Paradise. Before Jesus died and was resurrected, Paradise was one compartment of Hades where the righteous dead went (Luke 16:19-31). A different compartment of Hades is 'Torments' where the unsaved dead went and still go after death.

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Paradise is now in the third heaven. (2 Cor 12:2-4).

Refer to this Scofield reference note concerning Hades. --> Luke 16 - Scofield Reference Notes Bible Commentary


The word soul is used in different ways in the Bible. In Matthew 10:28 it is used for the immaterial part of man which survives the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna - Gehenna - the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

'Destroy' is the Greek word apollumi which does not refer to cessation of existence, but to utter ruination and uselessness. That is the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. Hades and the lake of fire are two different places. Hades is the temporary place of confinement for the unbeliever after death, and Gehenna or the lake of fire is the unbelievers permanent and eternal prison.


Likewise, in Gen 35:18 Rachel's soul is said to depart from her because she died. Physical death is the separtion of the soul from the body.

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul [nephesh] was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.


In 2 Peter 1:13-15, though the word for soul is not used, Peter speaks of his earthly dwelling which is his body, and departing from it, laying it aside.

2 Peter 1:13 'I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.

Last edited by Michael Way; 03-06-2012 at 04:50 AM..
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:41 AM
 
488 posts, read 1,244,259 times
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Default Is Hellfire a bible teaching?

actually , it is
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,985,269 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of hellfire is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART."(Jeremiah 7:31)


"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men."


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


NOTE #1: The Bible uses the word "fire" symbolically to indicate permanent death or permanent destruction.

NOTE #2: the words "Hell" and "Hades" and "Pit" are synonyms that mean THE GRAVE (of mankind).

NOTE #3: "High Places" as used in the scriptures that I quote in this thread refer to the worship of the false gods.


DEBATE QUESTIONS:
1. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?

2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?

3. According to Jeremiah 7:31 and Psalms 78:58-59, did the ancient Israelites offend God by getting involved with false worship in their "HIGH PLACES", which included burning people to death?

4. According to those who teach hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked and sinful. If Hellfire is for wicked people, why did Jesus spend three days in hell--considering that it says at 1 Peter 2:22 that he did not commit any sin?

5. Jesus obeyed Jehovah and died a slow and torturous death for mankind. Hadn't he suffered enough? He'd suffered terribly--because of being obedient to his Heavenly Father. So why was he being punished again with burning hellfire? What's the logic for punishing him all over again?

6. Recall that after Jesus' resurrection, he appeared and spoke to several of his faithful apostles on different occasions before he returned to heaven. Why is it that Jesus made no mention to any of his apostles--after his resurrection--that he went to hell where he burned for three days?

7. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?

8. Those who believe in eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Is it something separate from the person's body? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?
What many don't get is that Jesus had to PAY the PRICE for sin. That price is to die. The punishment for sin is not eternal torment. If so, then Jesus would have had to pay that price and since that price would be eternal it would never get paid. In the scriptures sin is DEBT. Something is owed for it. If it was not debt then there would be no need of redemption. God gave us logic and reasoning and if someone still hold unto Eternal Torment then they do so against sound logic and reasoning that God has given us. It really means that people are not applying that logic and reasoning to understand the Truth. Instead many are just accepting a brand of "TRUTH" from a trusted source.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,985,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Hades is not the grave. On the cross Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day. The grave is not Paradise. Before Jesus died and was resurrected, Paradise was one compartment of Hades where the righteous dead went (Luke 16:19-31). A different compartment of Hades is 'Torments' where the unsaved dead went and still go after death.

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Paradise is now in the third heaven. (2 Cor 12:2-4).

Refer to this Scofield reference note concerning Hades. --> Luke 16 - Scofield Reference Notes Bible Commentary


The word soul is used in different ways in the Bible. In Matthew 10:28 it is used for the immaterial part of man which survives the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna - Gehenna - the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

'Destroy' is the Greek word apollumi which does not refer to cessation of existence, but to utter ruination and uselessness. That is the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. Hades and the lake of fire are two different places. Hades is the temporary place of confinement for the unbeliever after death, and Gehenna or the lake of fire is the unbelievers permanent and eternal prison.


Likewise, in Gen 35:18 Rachel's soul is said to depart from her because she died. Physical death is the separtion of the soul from the body.

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul [nephesh] was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.


In 2 Peter 1:13-15, though the word for soul is not used, Peter speaks of his earthly dwelling which is his body, and departing from it, laying it aside.

2 Peter 1:13 'I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
Mike, if the sinner goes to eternal torment, then Jesus never paid the price for sinners.

If the wages of sin is eternal torment then Jesus could never redeem any sinner.

Additionally, if sin requires eternal torment then redemption is a mute point.

That alone should tell you that failed logic and reasoning of Eternal torment.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:23 AM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,022,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The word soul is used in different ways in the Bible. In Matthew 10:28 it is used for the immaterial part of man which survives the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna - Gehenna - the lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15).

'Destroy' is the Greek word apollumi which does not refer to cessation of existence, but to utter ruination and uselessness. That is the condition of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. Hades and the lake of fire are two different places. Hades is the temporary place of confinement for the unbeliever after death, and Gehenna or the lake of fire is the unbelievers permanent and eternal prison.


Likewise, in Gen 35:18 Rachel's soul is said to depart from her because she died. Physical death is the separtion of the soul from the body.

Gen 35:18 It came about as her soul [nephesh] was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.


In 2 Peter 1:13-15, though the word for soul is not used, Peter speaks of his earthly dwelling which is his body, and departing from it, laying it aside.

2 Peter 1:13 'I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14] knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15] And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
You admit that it's used in different ways - so let's see you use it in different ways.

Now go look up all the other references to nephesh in the Hebrew Bible. Don't just rely on one and misinterpret it. It has various meanings related to concepts such as "breath, life, appetite, emotion, and the whole person" (Marvin Pope, Job).
If I say, 'My couch will comfort me,
My bed will ease my complaint',
Then you dismay me with dreams,
Terrify me with nightmares,
Till my throat (nephesh) would choose strangling,
My bones death.
I loathe [it]; I would not live forever.
Hold off, for my days are a breath.
(Job 7:13-16, AB)
An obvious reference to physical death, rather than anything else. Can a "soul" be strangled, as understood by Christians? Of course not. But a "life" or "throat" can.
Between the millstones they press oil,
The presses they tread, but thirst.
From the city the dying groan,
The throats (nephesh) of the wounded cry;
Yet God thinks nothing amiss.
(Job 24:11-12, AB)
Another reference to death. The poetic parallelism strongly shows it's meaning as other than the Christian idea of a "soul".
Terrors are turned on me,
Dispelling my dignity like the wind,
Like a cloud gone my prosperity.
My soul (nephesh) within me is emptied;
Days of affliction seize me.
(Job 30:15-16, AB)
Again - can a Christian "soul" empty out of someone who is still alive?
Other instances of "pouring out the soul" are in I Samuel 1:15, Psalms 42:5, Lamentations 2:19.

Besides these instances, a close reading of the Hebrew Bible reveals that "nephesh" is synonomous with one's "life-force" or "total life" (Ezekiel: "the nephesh that sins, only he shall die", for example)- not some concept of a spiritual thing that rises up to Heaven on death. This latter concept would have to wait until later, at which point we now have people reading back their idea of "soul" into the Hebrew Bible - wrongly.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:47 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
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The bible itself explains what the lake of fire is, there is no need to think it is a "lake" that has "fire" instead of water. The lake of fire is the second death. Fire does one thing, it purifies. God is a consuming fire that purifies. To take the bible, especially revelation, as literal is elementary.
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Northern Wisconsin
10,379 posts, read 10,836,279 times
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Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Mt 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Mt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

God does not conform himself to man's logic and reasoning. God is who He is. Just because He does not fit your imagination of what God should be like, does not mean that is what God is. Its pretty arogant for people to think that God must conform Himself to my will, when the reality it is just the opposite.
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:52 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,076,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairieparson View Post
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Rev 20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
So insulting someone by calling them 'Raca', lands you in court, but insulting someone by calling them 'You fool!' lands you in eternal hell. Something seems a bit off balance here... the problem is the translation. The actual word is 'gehenna' which was commonly understood to mean a place of judgment, not eternal torture.

Quote:
Mt 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Mt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
So since you believe this is literal I trust you have cut off your hands and gouged out your eyes.
But again its not even talking about 'hell' - that is a made up English word. The original word is 'gehenna' - referring to the valley of hinnom, which was understood to be a place of judgment, not eternal torture.

Quote:
Heb 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, Heb 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Yes, God's enemies will be consumed. Not tortured forever.

Quote:
God does not conform himself to man's logic and reasoning.
^^^^^^^
This is a lie. God is truth, and by definition conforms to logic and reason. That is the only way we can understand what truth is - by using logic and reason. Now if by 'man's logic', you mean illogic, then I could see your point.
Quote:
God is who He is. Just because He does not fit your imagination of what God should be like, does not mean that is what God is. Its pretty arogant for people to think that God must conform Himself to my will, when the reality it is just the opposite.
Yes God is who He is. Why do you believe He would allow or purpose people being tortured forever? Its pretty arrogant to think that God who is love and who loves all people would do such a thing.
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:53 AM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,076,731 times
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Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind View Post
actually , it is
actually, it isn't.

Jesus never said the words 'hellfire'.
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