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So glad you asked. There are many more. Just google "How did the early church fathers view the trinity." You can read how they believed for yourself.
I realize that the ECF's are not inspired/infallible men, but this is history, and you can't deny that fact.
140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).
150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)
180 AD Irenaeus "...so that He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator." - Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3.
180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)
180 AD Irenaeus "For I have shown from the scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. (Irenaeus Against Heresies, chapter xix.2)
190 AD Clement Of Alexandria [note: Clement NEVER calls Jesus a creature.] "There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated." (Fragments, Part I, section III)
200 AD Tertullian "All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced...the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed." (Against Praxeas, ch 11)
200 AD Tertullian "[God speaks in the plural 'Let us make man in our image'] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and athird, the Spirit in the Word....one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." (Against Praxeas, ch 12)
200 AD Tertullian "Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, 'I and my Father are One' [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number" (Against Praxeas, 25)
Katie
Katie Justin Martyr is NOT saying what you think he is say. Read his discourse with Trypho the Jew. In it you will see Justin goes into great detail to explain to the Jews that there is MORE then ONE God.
There is God the Father and there is God the Son, both are distinct beings.
John 1 is NOT speaking of God the Father taking on flesh it is speaking of God the Son taking on flesh. That is why Jesus could say the FATHER is greater then I.
Where did the Trinity teaching come from? I would say it came from Genesis, where God said "Let Us make man in Our image". God refers to Himself as "Us". This is seen throughout the OT, and it is further clarified in the NT. The true question here is, how can so many people miss this undeniable truth?
It does NOT say God it says Eliohim, as in more then 1
It was necessary carnal "milk" because of the ignorance of our ancestors and their inordinate superstitious fear of Spirits. (This was also the reason for the carnal "milk" of the bodily resurrection.) There was no other way to communicate about consciousness as the basis of personhood to carnal minds other than to pretend they were separate "persons" sharing the same "essence." That "essence" was consciousness. The Holy Spirit IS God the Father's consciousness and it was produced by a human brain in Jesus. It was released to us ALL upon His death and rebirth (resurrection) as Spirit. It is available as the Comforter within the collective human consciousness to guide us to truth. That is why prayer in secret works. Our contact with God is in our human consciousness and is most effective when we are in harmony (resonant) with Christ's love for us ALL. Christ and the Father are one in consciousness and we can be too if we attune our consciousness in some harmonic (imperfect as it may be) to Christ in "love of God and each other."
This is absolute bunk. A private idea shared by very few, if any at all. Another dreamt up idea in order to arrange around the well known ghost story.
The Holy Spirit idea has been studied and examined in an organized manner through the centuries with life long works which address scripture.. rather then personal ghost stories while meditating for tingly toes
This is like a new age lets twist things around to fit a hallucination or two. Many people will make up...their own theology........ The end result never does too well. ( sadly....but thats how the cookie crumbles
Like Ive said before Mystic, by what authority do you assume in order to allow your mind to accept all these fanciful ideas? Exactly where is the direction coming from?
Last edited by stargazzer; 03-12-2012 at 06:37 PM..
Like Ive said before Mystic, by what authority do you assume in order to allow your mind to accept all these fanciful ideas? Exactly where is the direction coming from?
Thanks for sharing your opinion, star. I get the direction from the same place you could . . . if you were sincere and trusted it . . . from Christ who abides with us and His Holy Spirit within our consciousness that guides us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
Thanks for sharing your opinion, star. I get the direction from the same place you could . . . if you were sincere and trusted it . . . from Christ who abides with us and His Holy Spirit within our consciousness that guides us to the truth God has "written in our hearts."
This is what the looneys say, I know...because I'm guided by the Holy Spirit...
when asked the switch aroo comes along and indirectly challenges the askers sincerity.
Now heres another example.. The Holy Spirit you claim is the brain of Jesus. Where in the world do you drum these things up? Its continued that when we pass on we will assume spirit like form.."Just like Jesus"
Are you refusing the divinity idea....because from what I understand unless your God...you ain't gonna assume anything just like Jesus...These tangled up notions just keep piling up and you just keep on wiggling out with either sentiment, the famous ignore list or whatever... Have you not read ANY theology at all?
This is absolute bunk. A private idea shared by very few, if any at all. Another dreamt up idea in order to arrange around the well known ghost story.
The Holy Spirit idea has been studied and examined in an organized manner through the centuries with life long works which address scripture.. rather then personal ghost stories while meditating for tingly toes
This is like a new age lets twist things around to fit a hallucination or two. Many people will make up...their own theology........ The end result never does too well. ( sadly....but thats how the cookie crumbles
Like Ive said before Mystic, by what authority do you assume in order to allow your mind to accept all these fanciful ideas? Exactly where is the direction coming from?
A private idea shared by all would be just a bunch of private ideas put together. Agnosticism is true, because it is impossible to be all-knowing without knowing how doubting feels like, legitimately.
Many people will borrow other failed societies' theologies (the Europeans borrowing Abrahamics), they will be failures too. The truth is the only thing that matters, even if every conscious entity will shed a thousand tears for knowing it. Rejoice, because the truth is Agnosticism.
All people only use their own authority in formulating their ideas, you can hand over all the subjective authority you may want to people and books, but in the end, you are the one on who's authority you depend. It is you who decides what is right, who is right, and you are probably going to assume it is you who is right.
The ideas about trinities are as meaningless as all the rest of religion. just a fanciful poem taken too far by desperate people.
A private idea shared by all would be just a bunch of private ideas put together. Agnosticism is true, because it is impossible to be all-knowing without knowing how doubting feels like, legitimately.
Many people will borrow other failed societies' theologies (the Europeans borrowing Abrahamics), they will be failures too. The truth is the only thing that matters, even if every conscious entity will shed a thousand tears for knowing it. Rejoice, because the truth is Agnosticism.
All people only use their own authority in formulating their ideas, you can hand over all the subjective authority you may want to people and books, but in the end, you are the one on who's authority you depend. It is you who decides what is right, who is right, and you are probably going to assume it is you who is right.
Look it....if you want to argue with myself, your going to have be specific to what Im saying. IOW....the discussion is not general, there is a pointed claim thats being questioned.
And as I say....the loony bin is full of , I'm right because God told me. Now if that is true...which we know it is, then how has religion been able to continue in any organized way at all?.....because people called theologians offer guidance after much review and centuries of approach...
have you not read any theology either...do you not know what a Spiritual Director is?
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