Can only universalism or calvinism be true? (HaShem, Gospel, hell)
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Hi everyone, i'm new here. Anyways, here is the argument:
God has a will and desire for all of mankind. The Bible says that God's will and desire must come to pass:
Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 46:10, Job 42:2, Matthew 6:10, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 19:21 etc.
So that means that whatever the eternal destiny of mankind is, was a result of God's will and desire. So if few will be in Heaven forever and most will be in Hell forever, then that was his will for mankind which means that calvinism is true and arminianism is false.
But if God willed and desired that all of mankind be saved then that means that Hell isn't forever and all of mankind will be saved which means that universalism is true and arminianism is false.
Remember, the fate all mankind can't contradict God's will and desire. Either way arminianism seems to contradict the Bible as far as I can tell.
What do you think? And I request that you please state what you believe God's will and desire for mankind is in your response, thanks.
Hi everyone, i'm new here. Anyways, here is the argument:
God has a will and desire for all of mankind. The Bible says that God's will and desire must come to pass:
Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 46:10, Job 42:2, Matthew 6:10, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 19:21 etc.
So that means that whatever the eternal destiny of mankind is, was a result of God's will and desire. So if few will be in Heaven forever and most will be in Hell forever, then that was his will for mankind which means that calvinism is true and arminianism is false.
But if God willed and desired that all of mankind be saved then that means that Hell isn't forever and all of mankind will be saved which means that universalism is true and arminianism is false.
Remember, the fate all mankind can't contradict God's will and desire. Either way arminianism seems to contradict the Bible as far as I can tell.
What do you think? And I request that you please state what you believe God's will and desire for mankind is in your response, thanks.
Hi BC-Rec.
Neither Calvinism or Arminianism is true, though each theological system contains within it some things which are true. And neither is Universalism true.
God's will can be stated in three different categories. In some instances, His will is directive. In other cases His will is overruling. And then there is His permissive will. Man's volition is free to operate under God's permissive will. God may not approve of something that a person does but permits it nevertheless. But there are times when God will overrule a person's desire. God's directive will concerns what God wants to be done.
God desires for all men to be saved, but God made man's volition an issue in salvation. God requires a volitional response from man in response to the gospel. And man must take responsibility for his volitional decision. If he responds to the gospel message by trusting Jesus Christ for salvation then he is eternally saved. If he resists the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit at the point of gospel hearing and never places his personal faith in Christ before he dies, then he remains under condemnation and is eternally lost.
God's Permissive will: God does not desire that man disobey Him, but yet believers often disobey Him, and He permits it, though He will discipline the errant believer. God desires that all men be saved, but He allows man to resist His call and so remain under condemnation.
God's Overruling will: There are times when God will not allow someones volitional decision to have its intended result. Nor will God allow the collective volitional decisions of man to destroy the human race.
God's directive will: What God desires man to do. God directs man to obey Him, though again, He permits man to disobey Him.
Here is an excerpt from a study on the directive, overruling, and permissive will of God.
God’s directive will is simply all that God wants us to think and do, beginning with belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. God’s permissive will allows us to stray off the path of His directive will, using our free will to follow our sin nature if we so choose. Sinning always comes with a price, and God in His justice will always discipline those who are disobedient to His word. Then there is God’s overruling will. With His overruling will, God will steer events in the direction He wants them to go. He may prevent someone from doing something really stupid that will ruin their life, or He may change the course of history to keep a nation on its intended historical path. The Overruling Will of God - Balaam and the Donkey... Teen Trees - Prep School - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ
Hey Mike. his permissive and directive will according to your definition and the definition in the link you posted seems to contradict the Bible
"God desires that all men be saved, but He allows man to resist His call and so remain under condemnation"
If God desires all men to be saved but allows men to resist his desire then he doesn't in fact do all his pleasure and Isaiah 46:10 is made of no effect.
"God directs man to obey Him, though again, He permits man to disobey Him"
If God directs man to obey and his will be done matthew 6:10 then, all men must obey sooner or later to ensure that his will be done.
Hey Mike. his permissive and directive will according to your definition and the definition in the link you posted seems to contradict the Bible
"God desires that all men be saved, but He allows man to resist His call and so remain under condemnation"
If God desires all men to be saved but allows men to resist his desire then he doesn't in fact do all his pleasure and Isaiah 46:10 is made of no effect.
God's pleasure, will and purpose is both to resolve the angelic conflct in which man's volition is the most basic issue, and to bring many sons into glory. But God desires a reciprocal relationship with man which again involves mans volition.
The angelic conflict began when Satan made a decision to rebel against God. Since angelic volition was involved in Satan's fall, God created a lower creature, man, to resolve the conflict with his volition.
Satan's rebellion took place before the creation of man. God at that time sentenced Satan to the lake of fire. But that sentence won't be carried out until the end of the Millennium which is the end of human history prior to the eternal state. In between those two events, human history runs its course. It is probable that Satan had objected to the sentence given for his rebellion, and so it pleased God to grant a delay in the execution of that sentence, giving Satan the opportunity to prove that the sentence to the lake of fire was unfair. Satan arrogantly thought that he could usurp the throne of God, be like God, and rule over all the angels. He had become mad with power lust. During human history God is giving Satan the opportunity to prove that he is able to rule this world. Satan is called the god of this world. And Satan is attempting to do so but is unable to accomplish his ambition. That is a very big reason why there is so much suffering in this world. Not because Satan desires it to be so, but because he is not able to efficiently achieve his aims. Satan is also attempting to keep man from believing in Christ. And when a person does believe on Christ for eternal life, it is Satan's intent to prevent that believer from having a productive spiritual life in this world. Satan opposes God in every way and so tries to prevent man from being saved. Therefore, man's volition is paramount in resolving the angelic conflict. God gave man volition and requires a volitional response from man regarding the gospel.
So that while God desires that all men be saved, man must have the freedom to come to Christ in response to the gospel call, or to reject it. While God desires that all men be saved, it is also His purpose to bring a resolution to the angelic conflict.
The issue is this. If man who was created lower than the angels, and never having had access to heaven as the angels had had, uses his volition to respond to God's offer of salvation, then the angels who rebelled along with Satan are shown to be without excuse for choosing to rebel. Every time a person places his faith in Christ it demonstrates Satan's guilt and his futle attempt to overturn his just sentence.
So while God desires that all men be saved, and is going to bring many sons into glory, He is going to do so within the context of resolving the angelic conflict. Since man must take responsibility for his decisions, he must, if he chooses against God, bear the same penalty as the angels who rebelled. Matt. 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46]"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So God sovereignly gave man volition. And while permitting man's volition to function, God is achieving His purpose both in resolving the angelic conflict, and in bringing many sons into glory, referring to those who use their volition to respond to God's call through the gospel. And those who choose not to respond to the gospel will share the same fate as the fallen angels.
Quote:
"God directs man to obey Him, though again, He permits man to disobey Him"
If God directs man to obey and his will be done matthew 6:10 then, all men must obey sooner or later to ensure that his will be done.
Not at all. In the case of the believer, if a believer disobeys God and does not acknowledge his sins to God, he comes under divine discipline. If he continues to disobey, the punishment increases. If he still continues to disobey then God may take him out of this world under the sin unto death. He doesn't lose his salvation but he will lose out on eternal rewards.
In the case of the unbeliever, it is God's will that he believe in Christ, but it's not His intention to violate man's volition in the issue of salvation.
God's pleasure, will and purpose is both to resolve the angelic conflct in which man's volition is the most basic issue, and to bring many sons into glory. But God desires a reciprocal relationship with man which again involves mans volition.
If God's pleasure, will and purpose are to bring many sons to glory then that means that it's God's pleasure, will and purpose to not bring the rest to glory.
In the case of the unbeliever, it is God's will that he believe in Christ, but it's not His intention to violate man's volition in the issue of salvation.
The second part of your sentence contradicts the first. His intention can't be a stumbling block against his will. whatever his will is must come to pass.
It also contradicts the Bible. "Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails" Proverbs 19:21
If it's Gods will to have the unbeliever believe and be saved then it must come to pass, otherwise it was never his will to begin with.
So God sovereignly gave man volition. And while permitting man's volition to function, God is achieving His purpose both in resolving the angelic conflict, and in bringing many sons into glory, referring to those who use their volition to respond to God's call through the gospel. And those who choose not to respond to the gospel will share the same fate as the fallen angels.
Three things regarding this quote:
1. What your basically saying is that God's will is to simply give man free will and then to be contempt and submit to the will of their choice. But then that would mean that if they choose to reject Christ then it was God's will for them to do that; since his will is simply submitting to theirs.
2. Proverbs 19:21 once again becomes a contradiction.
3. If the Unbeliever shares the same fate as the fallen angels and God's will for unbelievers is to be saved then both the fallen angels and unbelievers shall eventually be saved. But if God's will for the fallen angels is to be lost forever then God's will cannot be that the unbelievers be saved, and as a result you cannot say that God wills for the unbeliever to be saved once again.
So you don't think that God knows from the beginning who is His and who is not His?
Does God not plant His own?
Is not The Kingdom 0f Heaven like a Man Who sowed Good Seed In His Field? - Matt.13:24
Will there not be a Remnant 0f Israel, 'The 144,000 OF ALL The Tribes 0f Israel?
Will there also not be 'The Great Multitude' of which no one could number of ALL The Tribes, Tongues and people?
Did Jesus not say, 'I Choose You The 12 and one of you is a devil' ?
Did God not put Adam and Eve on this earth
knowing He would defeat Satan, who fell here from heaven; through those who are His own?
The Bridegroom Who is The Lamb 0f God in Heavenly New Jerusalem soon to Marry The Great Multitude.
Will in the end ALSO reign as The King of kings and Lord of lords on the earth from His The Davidic Throne.
1,000 years before The Lamb wife will come to the earth in the Tabernacle 0f God New Jerusalem. when there is a new heaven and new earth.
Christians have been taught everyone is and will be the same to God.
Which do the same for. And have the same relationship with The Father and His Word.
Is there not Wise Virgins & Foolish Virgins? - Matt.25
It's the Kumbah-Christianity. It use to fill Pews & Pockets.
But the fire has gone out at The Kumbah-Christian Camp.
They are left in the dark and wondering what coming next....stay-tuned.
Hi everyone, i'm new here. Anyways, here is the argument:
God has a will and desire for all of mankind. The Bible says that God's will and desire must come to pass:
Ephesians 1:11, Isaiah 46:10, Job 42:2, Matthew 6:10, Psalm 115:3, Proverbs 19:21 etc.
So that means that whatever the eternal destiny of mankind is, was a result of God's will and desire. So if few will be in Heaven forever and most will be in Hell forever, then that was his will for mankind which means that calvinism is true and arminianism is false.
But if God willed and desired that all of mankind be saved then that means that Hell isn't forever and all of mankind will be saved which means that universalism is true and arminianism is false.
Remember, the fate all mankind can't contradict God's will and desire. Either way arminianism seems to contradict the Bible as far as I can tell.
What do you think? And I request that you please state what you believe God's will and desire for mankind is in your response, thanks.
It is HaShem Who declares the end from the beginning...
Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past those things which were not done, saying, My counsel shall rise; and, I will do all My desire;
Isa 46:11 calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My counsel from a far off land. Yes, I have spoken; yes, I will cause it to come; I have formed; yes, I will do it.
It is HaShem Who seeks out man...
Isa 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
It is HaShem Who chooses man...
Joh 15:16 You have not chosen Me, but I chose you out and planted you, that you should go and should bear fruit, and your fruit remain, that whatever you should ask the Father in My name, He may give you.
It is HaShem Who re-generates the spirit of man unto Belief and Faith...
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
It is HaShem Who gives man repentance...
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
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