Any Jehovah Witnesses on here? (Micah, incarnation, testimony, preach)

[snowdenscold]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Joh 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

All He says here is that Abraham knew of the day the Messiah would come and leaped for joy...And that He was already in the plans before Abraham came to be...

That is not all he is saying here and this is a pretty bad attempt to spin/explain it away.


I notice you left out verse 59. That's probably because it definitely supports the traditional reading (i.e. Jesus is invoking the covenant name of God and claiming to be such) and not your attempt to cram this verse into your theology.



And on a side note - I doubt 1 John 5:7 was originally in there, but keeping it is totally unnecessary to maintain belief in the Trinity. You can do so without it. Almost all scribal changes are additions (margin notes that bolster/clarify a point get inserted) - it's extremely rare to have a deletion.

[Barbara M Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mikelee81

In Tertullians argument against Praxeus in 200AD he uses the words Tres Unum Sunt referring to the three person in one God 1 John 5:7. The Nomina Sacra of early manuscripts have Christ, Jesus, Lord, etc all abbreviated expressing the divinity of his person. All throughout the New Testament, the Apostles declared Jesus as equal to God.

There is truth that Pagans had a trinitarian type view prior to the birth of Christ. This isn't pre-Christianity however. Christianity was born in Genesis 3.

Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Satan's introduction of the trinity occurs at the Tower of Babel as evidenced by the Father, Son, Mother prototype. It's the Satanic trinity with him attempting to fulfill messianic prophecy with Tammuz - the proclaimed resurrection of Nimrod.

The term Christian was first coined in Syrian Antioch when Christ’s followers became known as Christians. It is most unlikely that the Jews first styled Jesus’ followers “Christians” (Greek) or “Messianists” (Hebrew), for they would not reject Jesus as being the Messiah, or Christ, and then tacitly recognize him as the Anointed One, or Christ, by stamping his followers “Christians.” Some think the heathen population may have nicknamed them Christians out of jest or scorn, but the Bible shows that it was a God-given name; they “were by divine providence called Christians.”—Ac 11:26.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Barbara M Wheeler

The term Christian was first coined in Syrian Antioch when Christ’s followers became known as Christians. It is most unlikely that the Jews first styled Jesus’ followers “Christians” (Greek) or “Messianists” (Hebrew), for they would not reject Jesus as being the Messiah, or Christ, and then tacitly recognize him as the Anointed One, or Christ, by stamping his followers “Christians.” Some think the heathen population may have nicknamed them Christians out of jest or scorn, but the Bible shows that it was a God-given name; they “were by divine providence called Christians.”—Ac 11:26.

They were first called 'Followers of the Way'...

[Barbara M Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

They were first called 'Followers of the Way'...

That too is true. God saw fit to make his firstborn Son the central key figure in the outworking of all His purposes (Joh 1:14-18; Col 1:18-20; 2:8, 9), the focal point on which the light of all prophecies would concentrate and from which their light would radiate (1Pe 1:10-12; Re 19:10; Joh 1:3-9), the solution to all the problems that Satan’s rebellion had raised (Heb 2:5-9, 14, 15; 1Jo 3:8), and the foundation upon which God would build all future arrangements for the eternal good of His universal family in heaven and earth. (Eph 1:8-10; 2:20; 1Pe 2:4-8) Because of the vital role he thus plays in God’s purpose, Jesus could say, rightly and without exaggeration: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”—Joh 14:6.

[Mikelee81]

Originally Posted by Barbara M Wheeler

The term Christian was first coined in Syrian Antioch when Christ’s followers became known as Christians. It is most unlikely that the Jews first styled Jesus’ followers “Christians” (Greek) or “Messianists” (Hebrew), for they would not reject Jesus as being the Messiah, or Christ, and then tacitly recognize him as the Anointed One, or Christ, by stamping his followers “Christians.” Some think the heathen population may have nicknamed them Christians out of jest or scorn, but the Bible shows that it was a God-given name; they “were by divine providence called Christians.”—Ac 11:26.

Christianity was initiated in Genesis 3 at the fall of man in which God would provide the redeemer Messiah (seed of the Woman) Jesus to save mankind from its fallen state. The term "Christian" got penned in the book of Acts over 4000 years later.

[Jerwade]

Christ is gracious, an expression of goodwill to all men.
Now, that would be "Christian."

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by snowdenscold

That is not all he is saying here and this is a pretty bad attempt to spin/explain it away.


I notice you left out verse 59. That's probably because it definitely supports the traditional reading (i.e. Jesus is invoking the covenant name of God and claiming to be such) and not your attempt to cram this verse into your theology.



And on a side note - I doubt 1 John 5:7 was originally in there, but keeping it is totally unnecessary to maintain belief in the Trinity. You can do so without it. Almost all scribal changes are additions (margin notes that bolster/clarify a point get inserted) - it's extremely rare to have a deletion.

Ok, here you go, verse 59:

Joh 8:59 Because of this, they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


Happy?...It still does not even allude to a trinity...All it records is that they were picking up stones to chuck at Him...No one on here, including you and me, know the True Name of HaShem...

εἶπεν αυτοις ᾿Ιησους· αμὴν αμὴν λέγω υμιν, πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι εγὼ ειμί.

Why is there no comma after γενέσθαι?...Notice, it is there in the English, but not in the Greek...Why?...

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

εἶπεν αυτοις ᾿Ιησους· αμὴν αμὴν λέγω υμιν, πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι, εγὼ ειμί.


γενέσθαι εγὼ ειμί = I am ahead...

πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ, γενέσθαι εγὼ ειμί. = Before Abraham, I became existing...

[snowdenscold]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

Ok, here you go, verse 59:

Joh 8:59 Because of this, they took up stones that they might throw them on Him. But Jesus was hidden, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.


Happy?...It still does not even allude to a trinity...All it records is that they were picking up stones to chuck at Him...No one on here, including you and me, know the True Name of HaShem...

And why do you think that is ?? (the bolded part) My translation/interpretation explains their actions a lot more than yours does. If you (like the JW's, but for different reasons), can't link his statement to the covenant name of God from Exodus 3, I guess we're done cause there's not much left to debate.

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by snowdenscold

And why do you think that is ?? (the bolded part) My translation/interpretation explains their actions a lot more than yours does. If you (like the JW's, but for different reasons), can't link his statement to the covenant name of God from Exodus 3, I guess we're done cause there's not much left to debate.

Just explain how verse 59 alludes to a trinity?...

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by snowdenscold

And why do you think that is ?? (the bolded part) My translation/interpretation explains their actions a lot more than yours does. If you (like the JW's, but for different reasons), can't link his statement to the covenant name of God from Exodus 3, I guess we're done cause there's not much left to debate.

And it is not just JWs that do not believe in a Trinity, also, there is the Oneness Pentacostals that do not believe in a trinity...

In light of this, how can one say that Yeshua was HaShem in the flesh?:

Joh_8:54 Jesus answered, `If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who is glorifying me, of whom ye say that He is your God;
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'

Now, how can Yeshua have a God, and be God?...At the same time?...