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Old 09-01-2012, 09:16 PM
 
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I prefer that Catholics answer here, since God knows the other brands of Christianity have different standard and optional features.

We know that, during the Mass, bread and wine are transformed into the body and blood of Christ. In other Christian religions that include a paschal meal, the meal is a commemoration of the Last Supper. Do you think that Catholics REALLY believe that, at each Mass, the transformation really occurs? Do you think some Catholics are Cafeteria Catholics who believe it's a commemoration? Do you think the transformation can occur when presided over by priests who went by the wayside, or currently are?

Please discuss.
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
I prefer that Catholics answer here, since God knows the other brands of Christianity have different standard and optional features.

We know that, during the Mass, bread and wine are transformed into the body and blood of Christ. In other Christian religions that include a paschal meal, the meal is a commemoration of the Last Supper. Do you think that Catholics REALLY believe that, at each Mass, the transformation really occurs? Do you think some Catholics are Cafeteria Catholics who believe it's a commemoration? Do you think the transformation can occur when presided over by priests who went by the wayside, or currently are?

Please discuss.
Sorry, not quite accurate.

Some Episcopalians do believe in transubstantiation as Catholics do. Most Episcopalians believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine. To very few Episcopalians is it merely a commemoration of the Last Supper.

I grew up in a church (The RCA (Reformed Church of America, similar to Presbyterian in services, Calvinist in doctrine) that believed in a mere commemoration. The Eucharist in the Episcopal Church, to which I now belong, is very, very different.

Carry on.
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Sorry, not quite accurate.

Some Episcopalians do believe in transubstantiation as Catholics do. Most Episcopalians believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine. To very few Episcopalians is it merely a commemoration of the Last Supper.

I grew up in a church (The RCA (Reformed Church of America, similar to Presbyterian in services, Calvinist in doctrine) that believed in a mere commemoration. The Eucharist in the Episcopal Church, to which I now belong, is very, very different.

Carry on.
Maybe I should ask it this way:
Which traditional Christian faiths believe in transubstantiation and which do not (commemoration)?
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:47 PM
 
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I'm not "bumping" the thread, per se, but here's the deal. I have some doubts, and probably always have, about the "transubstantiation" part of the Catholic Mass. I have made posts here about what I think of many clergy members. Therefore, I see such a miraculous event as being less tenable when performed by men of the cloth, some of whom I don't respect. Should I bail from Catholicism or just stay "cafeteria?" Some constructive input would be appreciated.

Please, as a courtesy, no "light and the truth" diatribes from right-wing Christians, because I ain't going there. Input is welcomed from those more intimately familiar with the doctrine and this part of the liturgy.
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:20 PM
 
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Jesus said it in John 6. The Early Church Fathers believed it. It is absolutely fundamental to being Catholic. If you don't believe it, move on.
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Old 09-07-2012, 08:00 PM
 
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Well of a truth He is present and we become or are confirmed as the Body of Christ in Him. Many members yet one body. I am not Catholic but I beleive this.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome View Post
Jesus said it in John 6. The Early Church Fathers believed it. It is absolutely fundamental to being Catholic. If you don't believe it, move on.
Thanks for the candor.

Two questions:
a) Move on to what? Seriously.
b) What can help me believe it? The problem is that I think some of the not-so-great priests "sully" the process. Sorry.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
Do you think that Catholics REALLY believe that, at each Mass, the transformation really occurs?
Like many other denomonations, you have what the church offically teaches, and then what the various lay folk believe (which will vary widely). I know some Catholics really do believe in transsubstantiation, and I'm sure some hold other beliefs and just tolerate it (or haven't given it much thought at all).

Generally, the four views go:
- Transsubstantiation
- Consubstantiation
- Spiritual presence
- Commemoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodToBeHome
Jesus said it in John 6. The Early Church Fathers believed it. It is absolutely fundamental to being Catholic. If you don't believe it, move on.
Don't you think that's a little excessive? Are you really going to drive people away from the Catholic faith over this issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot
b) What can help me believe it? The problem is that I think some of the not-so-great priests "sully" the process. Sorry.
This issue goes back to Augustine and the Donatist controversey. The latter believed in ex opere operantis ( from the work of the one doing the working), whereby priests who had apostasied during persecutions couldn't perform the sacrament because their past actions had tarnished the efficacy and validity of the Eucharist. Augustine argued against them saying ex opere operato (from the work having been worked) - basically the validity of sacrement is independent of those administering it, and solely dependent on the holiness and work of God.

Long story short, the church sided with Augustine, and the Donatists were pissed and caused trouble for several more centuries until the Arab conquest made it a moot point.
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Old 09-08-2012, 01:01 AM
 
14,743 posts, read 30,091,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdenscold View Post
Like many other denomonations, you have what the church offically teaches, and then what the various lay folk believe (which will vary widely). I know some Catholics really do believe in transsubstantiation, and I'm sure some hold other beliefs and just tolerate it (or haven't given it much thought at all).

Generally, the four views go:
- Transsubstantiation
- Consubstantiation
- Spiritual presence
- Commemoration


Don't you think that's a little excessive? Are you really going to drive people away from the Catholic faith over this issue?


This issue goes back to Augustine and the Donatist controversey. The latter believed in ex opere operantis ( from the work of the one doing the working), whereby priests who had apostasied during persecutions couldn't perform the sacrament because their past actions had tarnished the efficacy and validity of the Eucharist. Augustine argued against them saying ex opere operato (from the work having been worked) - basically the validity of sacrement is independent of those administering it, and solely dependent on the holiness and work of God.

Long story short, the church sided with Augustine, and the Donatists were pissed and caused trouble for several more centuries until the Arab conquest made it a moot point.
Fantastic, information-packed post. Thanks.
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Old 09-08-2012, 09:31 AM
 
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I'm glad you found it helpful - though in full disclosure I should note that I actually hold a "commemoration" stance =)
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