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Old 09-19-2012, 12:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I agree, but many on here claim if you dont observe a Saturday 7th day sabbath, your doomed. And I have asked to show a verse in which Jesus or the apostles specifically said if you dont observe the sabbath, that will go to hell for not keeping a 7th day sabbath and no one has been able to list a verse yet without taking a verse somewhere and flipping it out of context to fit there point. Every verse I listed shows what one must practice to spell there doom, but many still cling to the sabbath for there justification.
Thank you for explaining that to me. Those folks are no different than the judaizers that claimed you had to be circumcised and keep the Law. That's simply not true. They condemn themselves for not keeping the whole Law.
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I agree, but many on here claim if you dont observe a Saturday 7th day sabbath, your doomed...
Armstrongism simply does not believe what Jesus proclaims. They flat out reject it. Here is another text that contradicts Armstrong's doctrines:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In this particular dialog between Jesus and Martha, Jesus not only specifically asks Martha if she believes what Jesus said concerning Himself (ie: being the resurrection and the life), but also with regards to His statement concerning those who believe in Him: that they shall never die. Jesus asks Martha point blank: Do you believe this?

Armstrong and his followers cannot respond to that question with a "yes" answer. Their doctrines will simply not allow them to.
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:07 AM
 
951 posts, read 1,045,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Your interpretation of John 8 is very bizarre and clearly refuted by scripture. A simply read of the narrative makes that abundantly clear, my friend.

Nor does the text say that those who "believed on Him" wanted to kill him, as you suppose. Your "for sure" argument is simply untenable with the actual text and you're simply seeing Armstrong's doctrines where none exist.

Those who believed on Jesus had eternal life. The text does not say that those believing on Jesus wanted to kill Him. The two concepts and ideas you're presenting (believing on Jesus and wanting to kill Him at the same time) are not only bizarre but completely contradictory in light of the rest of scripture:

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I've added words?!?...I've high lited (in pink) what you added to the text...lol. I've also not put any "private" interpretation on anything, my friend.

The text of Joh 8:33 to v.59 is clearly a dialog between Jesus and those who did not believe. If you simply read the text, Jesus even calls them unbelievers:

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

...as opposed to those whom John tells us (by inspiration) believed on Him (v.30 and v.31).

Are you really serious when you say that those who believed on Jesus wanted to kill him? That is an incredibly bizarre statement to make. Do you really not see the difference between those who believed on Jesus, and those who did not? This discussion is becoming rather humorous...

Also, you've yet to adequately address Joh 3:36, Joh 5:24 and Joh 6:47.

These texts specifically state that he who believes on Jesus hath eternal life. The Greek word being translated as "hath" in those texts is εχει: The word is used in the Greek present tense, indicative mood. And, there is simply no way to dismiss this, my friend. Those who believe on Jesus have eternal life. These texts are the proverbial nail in Armstrong's coffin and refute much of what Armstrong believed and taught. This is why I keep repeating them.

So far, you've said that these texts apply only to ancient "prophets" and those who had a "special job" to do. However, the texts do not say what you've concluded. Nor have you supplied any scripture whatsoever that will support such an erroneous position.

If you're unable to see what those texts specifically say, namely, that: those who believe on Jesus have eternal life, then discussing the rest of your Armstrong doctrines becomes rather fruitless.

If you haven't guessed already, I'm not going to let you proceed beyond this point...
No, you are wrong!

You said that Christ was conversing with those who did not believe on Him, not me. No, I did not add to the text, my bracketed words were to counter the adding of your interpretation and some of the uninspired commentators to the Scripture. The scripture plainly says He was talking to those who believed on Him and not what you added to the scripture.

Now, of course you have to believe on Christ to be saved, but there is more to it as Christ pointed out.

You can't live in sin and then give a password to allow yourself to have eternal life. Christ said Himself to those Jews who believed on Him that if they continued in His word, they were the ones who would be His disciples.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;


Mr. Armstrong pointed this out and expounded on it in the audio file I posted in my previous post:

Click here: John 8

That one statement Christ made about continuing in His word makes you a deceiver. You claim all you need is belief. Wrong! You have to obey Christ and Christ says you have to obey God to have eternal life. And you have to receive God's Holy Spirit to actually have eternal life.

I am not going to let you get away with this "belief only" false teaching. You are leading people astray and causing them to sin against God!

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Here are Christ's words that we are to continue in:

Matthew 19:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Christ listed 5 of the 10 Commandments all coming under the 2nd Great Commandment of loving thy neighbor.

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Christ here gives the two Great Commandments. By implication loving God is keeping the first four of the Ten Commandments:

Exodus 20:
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And I stand by my statement that eternal life was not open to ancient Israel and God's Holy Spirit was given to the prophets and others God used in performing the special jobs they had to do. Ancient Israel will come up in the 2nd Resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and be given their opportunity to receive God's Holy Spirit and have eternal life.

Because ancient Israel did not have God's Holy Spirit, this is the reason ancient Israel could not keep the Commandments that God gave them. You would understand this if you kept God's annual festivals and Holy Days:

PASSOVER
DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD
PENTECOST
FEAST OF TRUMPETS
DAY OF ATONEMENT
FEAST OF TABERNACLES
LAST GREAT DAY

The giving of God's Holy Spirit is picture by the Feast of Weeks or PENTECOST. The preceding Holy Day -- DAYS OF UNLEAVENED BREAD -- pictures our part in God's Master plan -- putting sin out of our lives and obeying God -- keeping God's Commandments.

You fail to understand God's Plan of Salvation. You can't take a shortcut and give a password--"I believe on Christ" and be saved. You have to continue in Christ's word.

And Christ's word includes the Ten Commandments which He said we need to keep to have eternal life and which He as the Word, the Spokesman of God thundered to ancient Israel.

You are not continuing in His Word. You are against keeping the Ten Commandments and you are causing others to sin by encouraging them to disobey God and use a password to try to get into the Kingdom of God!

I suggest you repent!

And yes, I am not going to let you get away with your errors. I am going to keep repeating these same basic principles over and over and over. So, stay tuned, there is more to come.......
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:19 AM
 
951 posts, read 1,045,462 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Your interpretation of John 8 is very bizarre and clearly refuted by scripture. A simply read of the narrative makes that abundantly clear, my friend.

Nor does the text say that those who "believed on Him" wanted to kill him, as you suppose. Your "for sure" argument is simply untenable with the actual text and you're simply seeing Armstrong's doctrines where none exist.

Those who believed on Jesus had eternal life. The text does not say that those believing on Jesus wanted to kill Him. The two concepts and ideas you're presenting (believing on Jesus and wanting to kill Him at the same time) are not only bizarre but completely contradictory in light of the rest of scripture:

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I've added words?!?...I've high lited (in pink) what you added to the text...lol. I've also not put any "private" interpretation on anything, my friend.

The text of Joh 8:33 to v.59 is clearly a dialog between Jesus and those who did not believe. If you simply read the text, Jesus even calls them unbelievers:

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

...as opposed to those whom John tells us (by inspiration) believed on Him (v.30 and v.31).

Are you really serious when you say that those who believed on Jesus wanted to kill him? That is an incredibly bizarre statement to make. Do you really not see the difference between those who believed on Jesus, and those who did not? This discussion is becoming rather humorous...

Also, you've yet to adequately address Joh 3:36, Joh 5:24 and Joh 6:47.

These texts specifically state that he who believes on Jesus hath eternal life. The Greek word being translated as "hath" in those texts is εχει: The word is used in the Greek present tense, indicative mood. And, there is simply no way to dismiss this, my friend. Those who believe on Jesus have eternal life. These texts are the proverbial nail in Armstrong's coffin and refute much of what Armstrong believed and taught. This is why I keep repeating them.

So far, you've said that these texts apply only to ancient "prophets" and those who had a "special job" to do. However, the texts do not say what you've concluded. Nor have you supplied any scripture whatsoever that will support such an erroneous position.

If you're unable to see what those texts specifically say, namely, that: those who believe on Jesus have eternal life, then discussing the rest of your Armstrong doctrines becomes rather fruitless.

If you haven't guessed already, I'm not going to let you proceed beyond this point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Armstrongism simply does not believe what Jesus proclaims. They flat out reject it. Here is another text that contradicts Armstrong's doctrines:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

In this particular dialog between Jesus and Martha, Jesus not only specifically asks Martha if she believes what Jesus said concerning Himself (ie: being the resurrection and the life), but also with regards to His statement concerning those who believe in Him: that they shall never die. Jesus asks Martha point blank: Do you believe this?

Armstrong and his followers cannot respond to that question with a "yes" answer. Their doctrines will simply not allow them to.
Wrong!

Mr Armstrong taught that Christ is the only way to eternal life. You must believe in and on Christ and most important you must believe Christ and do the things He tells you to do.

So, it is more than just believing. You have to continue in Christ's word to have eternal life.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

See, you can't get away with breaking God's Sabbath (God's 4th Commandment). You can't answer that because you know you are not continuing in Christ's word. Christ was the Word, the Spokesman of God who actually thundered the Ten Commandments from Mount Sinai. You are deceiving people into a false salvation of just professing a belief and not living a true Christian life of obeying God and Christ and keeping the Commandments of God as Christ said one needs to do to have eternal life.

Matthew 19:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


I suggest that you repent before it is too late.
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:30 AM
 
951 posts, read 1,045,462 times
Reputation: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I agree, but many on here claim if you dont observe a Saturday 7th day sabbath, your doomed. And I have asked to show a verse in which Jesus or the apostles specifically said if you dont observe the sabbath, that will go to hell for not keeping a 7th day sabbath and no one has been able to list a verse yet without taking a verse somewhere and flipping it out of context to fit there point. Every verse I listed shows what one must practice to spell there doom, but many still cling to the sabbath for there justification.
I gave you the verse in Luke and he stated the Sabbath was a Commandment. You refuse to accept it as a Commandment.
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:46 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 6,078,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tthttf View Post
I gave you the verse in Luke and he stated the Sabbath was a Commandment. You refuse to accept it as a Commandment.

Yes and I have asked you repeatedly to show me a specific verse that Jesus or the apostles SPECIFICALLY says if you dont observe the 7th day Saturday sabbath you will go to hell. I never asked you to show a verse where it says sabbath was a commandment and they were still under the Moasic law then in that verse in Luke. I showed every verse that shows who will not inherit the kingdom of God, and sabbath breaking isnt on that list.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:28 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,919,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tthttf View Post
No, you are wrong!
Yes!, I am right!...lol This is becoming rather entertaining...a good cup of coffee and tthttf in the morning to start the day...lol

Quote:
You said that Christ was conversing with those who did not believe on Him, not me.
If you'll go back and read my post, I indicated that in John's narrative, Jesus takes a moment to focus His words upon those who believed, verses 31 to 32. Then, John's narrative continues, starting at verse 33, and records the arguments of the unbelievers, and Jesus' response to the unbelievers, concluding at verse 59.

Quote:
No, I did not add to the text, my bracketed words were to counter the adding of your interpretation and some of the uninspired commentators to the Scripture.
Yes, you did add directly to the text. Your own interpretation...lol...which was rather bizarre to say the least.

Quote:
The scripture plainly says He was talking to those who believed on Him and not what you added to the scripture.
I added nothing to what Jesus said. And yes, Jesus did address those believing on Him in verses 31 to 32. The remaining portion, resuming at verse 33, focuses on what the unbelievers said and Jesus' response to them.

Now, I want to return to verse 30: If you'll notice in verse 30, John indicates (by divine inspiration) that many believed on Jesus.

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

If we go back a few chapters in John, Jesus specifically taught that those who believed on Him had eternal life. This is important, because Jesus did not say that those who believed could have eternal life, or might have eternal life if they do something else, or probably will have eternal life in the future; but rather Jesus said they have eternal life, using the present tense, right then, while Jesus was speaking. Here is that text:

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Is it your position that those in John 8:30 did not believe on Jesus, nor did they have eternal life? And if so, how can you possibly arrive at that conclusion?

We're not moving beyond this point, my friend...
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:31 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,919,368 times
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Originally Posted by tthttf View Post
Wrong!
Wrong!...lol
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:07 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,919,368 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by tthttf View Post
Mr Armstrong taught...So, it is more than just believing. You have to continue in Christ's word to have eternal life.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Don't you see what you're doing here, tthttf? You're not really reading the text for what it says. The text does not say ..."if ye continue in my word, then ye have eternal life".

It says: ... "If you continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed".

What you've done is assumed something (in this case: eternal life); and, that something is not actually being stated in the text. This is why your doctrines are not agreeable with scripture. Because you really do not believe what Jesus actually says in the texts.

Likewise, when you heard the Gospel, (here it is for reference):

1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

...you really did not believe that either.

You've simply been taught by Armstrong what to believe and what not to believe.

Isn't this obvious to you by now?

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 09-20-2012 at 10:22 AM.. Reason: punctuation
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Old 09-20-2012, 01:13 PM
 
951 posts, read 1,045,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Don't you see what you're doing here, tthttf? You're not really reading the text for what it says. The text does not say ..."if ye continue in my word, then ye have eternal life".

It says: ... "If you continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed".

What you've done is assumed something (in this case: eternal life); and, that something is not actually being stated in the text. This is why your doctrines are not agreeable with scripture. Because you really do not believe what Jesus actually says in the texts.

Likewise, when you heard the Gospel, (here it is for reference):

1Co 15:1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

...you really did not believe that either.

You've simply been taught by Armstrong what to believe and what not to believe.

Isn't this obvious to you by now?
No. No. No!

You are teaching against the Spiritual Law of God.

Romans 8:
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Reading Romans 8:7, it doesn't get much plainer than that. You cannot twist this scripture. Mr. Armstrong said you would know a carnal mind by its fruits, because a carnal mind is against the Law of God! You are teaching salvation by belief only without any obedience to God at all. That is wrong!

Paul, even states that we are to obey the Commandments:

1 Corinthians 7:
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The Spiritual Law of God is not being written in your heart and mind because you teach belief only, a password theology where disobedience to God and the Spiritual Law is acceptable. It is not acceptable! A true Christian is to be led by God's Holy Spirit. A true Christian is to keep the Commandments as Christ said. A true disciple of Christ is to continue in His word.

Here is my favorite verse:

Revelation 14:
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

And the Sabbath is one of God's Commandment as Luke verifies.

Luke 23:
56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Plus, you do not even teach the true Gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom of God! One must believe that Gospel and yet you do not even know what it is. You only teach about the Person of Christ and skip over the very message He taught and sent His apostles and disciples out to teach.

May you repent!
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