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I think for most of us, when we think about sin, we think about some kind of action. In other words, when we lie, we sin. When we complain, we sin. When we curse out our parents, we sin and so on. All those things are true, but sin is not so much an action. The action is not so much the root, but the result of the true problem. The truth is, our bodies are sin. Our bodies are "off the mark" on where God originally created them to operate. We can't help but lie and do all those other things, because of our bodies. Sin nature and human nature are one in the same, since the fall of man.
Some of you may say you already know all this stuff, but do we really apply this information? For instance, even though we know our bodies are off the mark, we still try in our own effort not to sin. We try not to lie, curse, and all those other things with the effort of our body. If we truly knew the above, we would know trying not to sin with our own effort is pointless. Our body can't help but sin, it is off the mark.
With all that said, we need a new nature. That is what Jesus brought. The power to live righteously, is in that nature. That is why Jesus said you must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God. Once you're born again in Christ, you have to learn to rest in His power. Remember, a new born baby don't know a whole lot, and I'm sure most Christians are still babies. So we have to renew our minds and continue to be transformed in Christ, going from glory to glory. Again remember, even though we are born again, we still have these bodies that are passing away everyday. We can still try to do things according to the power of these bodies, we can even try to do what Jesus told us to do with these bodies, and that is a big no-no.
Rest, that has always been God's message. Listen to Jesus, and when He asks you to do something, you'll find He gives you the power to succeed. The power is in your born again spirit, and we have to learn to dwell in that, instead of the effort of the flesh.
The world doesn't understand these things. They know nothing about our origin, and as far as they can tell, nature has been like this since the beginning. Take homosexuality for example. (I understand the hot button on this topic, yet I'll present it in a way most probably have never heard of) According to the world, it is a natural affection. Truth be told, if the billions of years history of the universe and everything in it is true, it is certainly a natural affection. However, if God created the universe, and He created life to operate a certain way, today's world is a corruption of God's original creation. I totally agree that homosexuality real, that people are sincerely in love with those of the same sex. That one can't simply stop being homosexual. It's in our DNA. Just like it is in our DNA to lie, to hate, to complain, to be jealous of things that don't belong to us, to take advantage, to murder, to have sex with animals, and whatever else we do. Our DNA is corrupt, and nothing is operating as God originally created it to operate. People like to single homosexuality out as a big sin, but again as I said before at the beginning of my topic, sin is not so much an action, but the root of our bodies being "off the mark". So when it comes to things like homosexuality, stop telling them to be straight. They genuinely are homosexual in their bodies. Instead, and not just homosexuals but every single one of us, talk on the grace of God that came by Lord Jesus. Only He has the righteous nature that Adam once had, and it's only that nature that empowers us to be righteous.
For those of us who are born again, as we mature in Christ Jesus, you will find yourself sinning less and less. Because again, sin is not so much the action, the action is the result of our bodies being off the mark. Our bodies are sin.
Last edited by Heavenese; 11-03-2012 at 10:25 AM..
I think for most of us, when we think about sin, we think about some kind of action. In other words, when we lie, we sin. When we complain, we sin. When we curse out our parents, we sin and so on. All those things are true, but sin is not so much an action. The action is not so much the root, but the result of the true problem. The truth is, our bodies are sin. Our bodies are "off the mark" on where God originally created them to operate. We can't help but lie and do all those other things, because of our bodies. Sin nature and human nature are one in the same, since the fall of man.
Some of you may say you already know all this stuff, but do we really apply this information? For instance, even though we know our bodies are off the mark, we still try in our own effort not to sin. We try not to lie, curse, and all those other things with the effort of our body. If we truly knew the above, we would know trying not to sin with our own effort is pointless. Our body can't help but sin, it is off the mark.
With all that said, we need a new nature. That is what Jesus brought. The power to live righteously, is in that nature. That is why Jesus said you must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God. Once you're born again in Christ, you have to learn to rest in His power. Remember, a new born baby don't know a whole lot, and I'm sure most Christians are still babies. So we have to renew our minds and continue to be transformed in Christ, going from glory to glory. Again remember, even though we are born again, we still have these bodies that are passing away everyday. We can still try to do things according to the power of these bodies, we can even try to do what Jesus told us to do with these bodies, and that is a big no-no.
Rest, that has always been God's message. Listen to Jesus, and when He asks you to do something, you'll find He gives you the power to succeed. The power is in your born again spirit, and we have to learn to dwell in that, instead of the effort of the flesh.
The world doesn't understand these things. They know nothing about our origin, and as far as they can tell, nature has been like this since the beginning. Take homosexuality for example. (I understand the hot button on this topic, yet I'll present it in a way most probably have never heard of) According to the world, it is a natural affection. Truth be told, if the billions of years history of the universe and everything in it is true, it is certainly a natural affection. However, if God created the universe, and He created life to operate a certain way, today's world is a corruption of God's original creation. I totally agree that homosexuality real, that people are sincerely in love with those of the same sex. That one can't simply stop being homosexual. It's in our DNA. Just like it is in our DNA to lie, to hate, to complain, to be jealous of things that don't belong to us, to take advantage, to murder, to have sex with animals, and whatever else we do. Our DNA is corrupt, and nothing is operating as God originally created it to operate. People like to single homosexuality out as a big sin, but again as I said before at the beginning of my topic, sin is not so much an action, but the root of our bodies being "off the mark". So when it comes to things like homosexuality, stop telling them to be straight. They genuinely are homosexual in their bodies. Instead, and not just homosexuals but every single one of us, talk on the grace of God that came by Lord Jesus. Only He has the righteous nature that Adam once had, and it's only that nature that empowers us to be righteous.
For those of us who are born again, as we mature in Christ Jesus, you will find yourself sinning less and less. Because again, sin is not so much the action, the action is the result of our bodies being off the mark. Our bodies are sin.
It is from the heart that evil proceeds. The body is neutral. It is the heart that perceives, desires, and reaches. This is not talking about that physical organ that pumps blood through our body but our will and desires. It is very much interwoven with our body but it is what first prompts sin to occur. Before Eve reached out and took the fruit she 'SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD FOR FOOD, THAT IT WAS PLEASANT TO LOOK AT, AND THAT IT WAS DESIRABLE TO MAKE ONE WISE, then, and only then, did she reach out and take it and eat it. It was her thoughts that gave rise to the sin. It is not what goes INTO a man that defiles him but what comes OUT of him....the thoughts.
Being mortal is a cause of our sins. We aren't mortal because we sin. There is NO verse in the Bible that says Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned. In contrast, God said to them, DYING you shall die.
Explaining Romans 5:12, [Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because [eph' ho, "on which"] all sinned]-Steven Jones says:
Unfortunately, however, when the King James translators came to Romans 5:12, they were just as puzzled as Jerome was. They thought the "death" in this verse was "spiritual death," rather that "physical death." (These are inaccurate terms; the Bible calls them "the second death" and "mortality.")
At any rate, this persistent misunderstanding made them follow Jerome's error in reversing the cause and effect in this verse. The Greek phrase used is eph' ho. Eph', or epi, means "on, upon, or over." Even English dictionaries give this meaning, because so many of our words beginning with "epi" are of Greek origin. The Greek word, Ho, means "which." The phrase "on which" or "over which" denotes a consequence or result to follow.
To illustrate this, let us say, "I walked into a stumblingblock, ON WHICH I fell." Did my fall cause the stumblingblock to exist? Of course not. Yet the New American Standard Version would have us render this: "I walked into a stumblinglock, BECAUSE I fell." That is sheer nonsense. No translator should take it upon himself to turn the sentence around in order to suit his own understanding.
So we can easily see that the first death is the cause, and our sins are the result. We are mortal; therefore we sin. And because we sin as individuals, there is a lake of fire, a second death, to restore the lawful order to God's universe. It is a place where men must pay the last farthing of debt to sin until the final Jubilee sets the creation free. Only those who appropriate Jesus' payment for sin will avoid that second death entirely.
End of excerpt
It is not our bodies per se that is the source of our sin, but it is that we are mortal that we are weak and subject to the rule of sin.
I do love it tho when people think and ask questions and search for answers for themselves. Bravo
It is from the heart that evil proceeds. The body is neutral. It is the heart that perceives, desires, and reaches. This is not talking about that physical organ that pumps blood through our body but our will and desires. It is very much interwoven with our body but it is what first prompts sin to occur. Before Eve reached out and took the fruit she 'SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD FOR FOOD, THAT IT WAS PLEASANT TO LOOK AT, AND THAT IT WAS DESIRABLE TO MAKE ONE WISE, then, and only then, did she reach out and take it and eat it. It was her thoughts that gave rise to the sin. It is not what goes INTO a man that defiles him but what comes OUT of him....the thoughts.
Being mortal is a cause of our sins. We aren't mortal because we sin. There is NO verse in the Bible that says Adam and Eve were immortal before they sinned. In contrast, God said to them, DYING you shall die.
Explaining Romans 5:12, [Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because [eph' ho, "on which"] all sinned]-Steven Jones says:
Unfortunately, however, when the King James translators came to Romans 5:12, they were just as puzzled as Jerome was. They thought the "death" in this verse was "spiritual death," rather that "physical death." (These are inaccurate terms; the Bible calls them "the second death" and "mortality.")
At any rate, this persistent misunderstanding made them follow Jerome's error in reversing the cause and effect in this verse. The Greek phrase used is eph' ho. Eph', or epi, means "on, upon, or over." Even English dictionaries give this meaning, because so many of our words beginning with "epi" are of Greek origin. The Greek word, Ho, means "which." The phrase "on which" or "over which" denotes a consequence or result to follow.
To illustrate this, let us say, "I walked into a stumblingblock, ON WHICH I fell." Did my fall cause the stumblingblock to exist? Of course not. Yet the New American Standard Version would have us render this: "I walked into a stumblinglock, BECAUSE I fell." That is sheer nonsense. No translator should take it upon himself to turn the sentence around in order to suit his own understanding.
So we can easily see that the first death is the cause, and our sins are the result. We are mortal; therefore we sin. And because we sin as individuals, there is a lake of fire, a second death, to restore the lawful order to God's universe. It is a place where men must pay the last farthing of debt to sin until the final Jubilee sets the creation free. Only those who appropriate Jesus' payment for sin will avoid that second death entirely.
End of excerpt
It is not our bodies per se that is the source of our sin, but it is that we are mortal that we are weak and subject to the rule of sin.
I do love it tho when people think and ask questions and search for answers for themselves. Bravo
You brought up something interesting about Adam. That it was their thoughts that eventually led to the disobedient act. (Of course the thought of disobeying God came by Satan's suggestion, and the thought of trusting Satan's word over God's, is what led to the fall)
I think we are in agreement however, because Adam's situation was different then where we are after the fall. Adam's being wasn't corrupt in the beginning, so he could actually obey God perfectly. After the fall, everything became corrupt, and we have no shot at obeying God in our strength. Trying to obey Him actually reveals the problem in our mortality, as you put it. When Adam fell, everything about us (Spirit, soul, and body) fell. Mortality is ultimately what I'm referring to with this topic, that with these bodies (because Christians have a new heart in Christ, they have a perfect spirit in Him) we can't help but sin. The power to be obedient to God is in our new born again spirit in Christ.
Paul's stuggle with this is illustrated in Romans 7: 14-25
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
So it's important that we have no confidence in our current bodies. Our bodies are still corrupt, the only thing that has changed about us when we received Christ, is our inner man, our spirit. Not every Christian understand these things, and they still try to obey God with the effort of their body. Even worse, they preach to the world that they should stop sinning, as if they could stop sinning with their own effort. It really confuses people, and causes despair to those who desperately try to obey God. We preach law instead of the grace God has given us. Grace is the only thing that will save us, not our own effort. That's the main point I want to get at with this thread. Yet what you said about the thoughts of our heart is true.
On another note: I know people hesitate to say that Adam was immortal before the fall. Yet he certainly wasn't mortal. Scripture doesn't indicate that Adam would have died even if he never sinned. It actually indicates he was created to live forever.
God is perfect in love , and free from sin .....man was created perfect free from sin ...... the devil and demons and fallen angels were created perfect free of sin ......devil and his fallen angels and demons fell from perfect love to corruption of sin and the earth is were they can rule in authority if man gives them authority and God needs man to come to God and receive the authority to put the devil out of mans lives ..... God is still perfect in love and free of sin , and God can bring relief for man to live in the earth along with this corrupt devil and his fallen angels and demons , but man can not get rid of these dark forces out of the earth , and God will not remove them out of the earth until after the second coming of Christ..... See the devil puts sin in the face of man , and man can receive it and resist the sin or get God to rip it out through Jesus Blood judgments ..... Don`t believe this ? Seen a few arthritis pain gland disruptor demons last week while I was sleeping two large dark haired dogs and one brown bear demons were bothering me and one said ` I can hurt you bad do you want to be my friend? ` I said back . ``No for I have Holy Spirit and I am not afraid of you``........ Then the dog ran up to me a bit my hand in the spirit and pain developed all over and through my hand , were I woke up and rebuked these demons through Jesus name , then the pain left my hand ........ See demon put sin on here and through Jesus blood prayers Jesus spirit ripped the sin and these demons out , If I did not rip these demons out through Jesus blood prayers then they could remain and created deformities and health problems which create instabilities for here and the Lord who spirit abides here....
Jehovah’s just and righteous standards allowed for his dealing differently with Adam and Eve’s offspring than with their parents. Why, you might reasonably ask? For the reason that Adam’s offspring inherited sin, hence involuntarily started life as imperfect creatures with a built-in inclination toward wrongdoing. (Ps 51:5; Ro 5:12) Thus, there was basis for mercy toward them. Jehovah’s first prophecy (Ge 3:15), spoken at the time of pronouncing judgment in Eden, showed that the rebellion of his first human children (as well as that of one of his spirit sons) had not embittered Jehovah nor dried up the flow of his love. That prophecy pointed in symbolic terms toward a righting of the situation produced by the rebellion and a restoration of conditions to their original perfection, the full significance being revealed millenniums later
Inherited sin is pretty simple to understand, really. It is inherited imperfection.
If you take a cake tin and dent it, every cake that comes from that pan is flawed and dented. That pan can no longer produce perfect cakes...
We have been born from imperfect parents, thus we are slaves to sin, or imperfection (at least for the time being.)
Yep, and no longer are we, who are born again and have a new spirit within us, are slaves to sin. We have a new nature within us that doesn't come from Adam, but from Jesus. So we have the power to not sin. Even if we sin, because of a yeilding to the flesh, we have an advocate with the Father. That sin is covered by Jesus' blood, and we can continue to be free from sin.
The more we grow in the spirit, the less we will sin. So I encourage all of my Chrsitian brethren, don't try to do things in the effort of your bodies and abilities. Yet live according to our new nature in Christ, our born again spirit. The Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are the children of God. Everything having to do with Adam's nature is passing away.
Yep, and no longer are we, who are born again and have a new spirit within us, are slaves to sin. We have a new nature within us that doesn't come from Adam, but from Jesus. So we have the power to not sin. Even if we sin, because of a yeilding to the flesh, we have an advocate with the Father. That sin is covered by Jesus' blood, and we can continue to be free from sin.
The more we grow in the spirit, the less we will sin. So I encourage all of my Chrsitian brethren, don't try to do things in the effort of your bodies and abilities. Yet live according to our new nature in Christ, our born again spirit. The Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are the children of God. Everything having to do with Adam's nature is passing away.
Thanks for your insight that it is impossible "to do things in the effort of your bodies and abilities." Martin Luther realized that we must have a renewal of the heart, a new nature. He said a monkey can imitate human characteristics very nicely, but unless he has a new nature, he is still not a man. It is only when we receive the Holy Spirit that we are able to be obedient to our Savior. And Peter said in Acts 5:32 that God only gives the Holy Ghost to those who obey Him. So we must have a mind to be obedient to be able to receive the Holy Spirit.
when sin increases, grace superabounds. you cannot outsin the Grace of God.
We cannoit assume that God's grace is greater than our sin.
Paul wrote in Rom,. 6:[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. [16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Paul also said in rom. 7 [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. But we cannot willfully sin. See Heb. 10:26.
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