Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,060,466 times
Reputation: 11862
Advertisements
If believing in Eternal Torment is crucial to being truly 'saved', as a few claim, and if one feels in his heart that torturing people forever is totally wrong, does God require that that person hardens his or her heart to his own feelings of mercy in order to, ironically enough, be embraced in the bosom of Love itself?
Do you think Universalists are more loving have a more positive view of God?
If Universalists are in error, perhaps the entire 'God is Love' paradigm must be re-thought. Maybe the old school fire'n'brimstone preachers were more correct. Moderator cut: deleted
If believing in Eternal Torment is crucial to being truly 'saved', as a few claim, and if one feels in his heart that torturing people forever is totally wrong, does God require that that person hardens his or her heart to his own feelings of mercy in order to, ironically enough, be embraced in the bosom of Love itself?
Perhaps I'm not the smartest guy...but I'm not sure I follow what you're attempting to say.
Quote:
Do you think Universalists are more loving have a more positive view of God?
I think they have a lower, less Holy view of God. You can call it loving if you want, but it is an incorrect view. They're emphasizing one attribute over others.
Quote:
If Universalists are in error, perhaps the entire 'God is Love' paradigm must be re-thought. Maybe the old school fire'n'brimstone preachers were more correct. Moderator cut: Orphaned
I won't repeat what you say he hates above.....but the Bible does say that he hates some. He hated Esau...not just Esau's actions. He hates Esau.
You're on the right track. It does require a hardened heart to embrace the doctrine of ET. Otherwise the ETers would spend every possible moment out in the streets pleading with people to "get saved". They would not ever have time to relax, go on vacation, shop, watch T.V. for entertainment or other such things while they could be out snatching people from the lake of fire - unless, of course, they put their own pleasures above saving people from such an indescribably miserable and eternal fate. The doctrine fails on every level of reasonableness. The doctrine makes God into a crazed lunatic.
Those who cannot harden their hearts are the ones who wind up having the nervous breakdowns from the doctrine and there are many who have including myself many years ago. I could not enjoy anything because of my belief in it. I just cried my heart out for many years because of it and worried myself sick. Until I found out the truth.
i really cant answer if universalist are more loving. i dont know any of them personally, i do believe in the salvation of all but i loath the name universalist. it is just an attempt to place us in a box. They want to label us to be able to point fingers. I do think some church folk, and non church folk, are loving. when i was in iraq, my best friend out there was athiest, he was a lot nice than the church folk out there. Love comes from our hearts, and hopefully not from our religion.
i think universalist have a more loving view. they dont have to say, " too bad, they did not repeat the sinners prayer now they burn (literally, with real fire) forever. Universalist know all is of God. God created evil and good. Universalist dont have to try to make excuses for God.
If believing in Eternal Torment is crucial to being truly 'saved', as a few claim, and if one feels in his heart that torturing people forever is totally wrong, does God require that that person hardens his or her heart to his own feelings of mercy in order to, ironically enough, be embraced in the bosom of Love itself?
Do you think Universalists are more loving have a more positive view of God?
If Universalists are in error, perhaps the entire 'God is Love' paradigm must be re-thought. Maybe the old school fire'n'brimstone preachers were more correct. Also, if you take the Bible literally God really does hate ****, to use an example.
Hi Trimac20 I think that most people who believe in ET believe that because it is what they are taught and it fulfills their sense of justice. People who don't accept Jesus are not quite as good as those who do so they deserve punishment. It give them the "human" desire to be "better than others" People like Hitler, Osama, and the like deserve to be in pain for all the pain they have caused, " it's only fair" The trouble with this type of reasoning is that God is so high above us we don't understand always why He does what He does.
God is creating a family. He is making his children over in his image. He is a loving Father and like any loving Father his main goal is to make his children better and to be like him, and yes that includes Hitler and Osama, as despicable as they are in this life. He will use his "judgments" to make them reap what they have sown and through this process ,He knows exactly what to do to reach their heart, and they will understand everything and they will be changes and repent.
In other words "fair" to God involves not punishing his children forever but making them better and perfect like He is. Punishing someone with no end serves no purpose punishment is to correct bad behavior. Punishment for punishments sake is just cruel and sadistic, that is not God.
If believing in Eternal Torment is crucial to being truly 'saved', as a few claim, .
How much of that is because you want to put it in those terms rather than what is being stated as the lie of Universalism?
Let's say we're disputing what a traffic light is.
Jesus says
John 3:16, John 3:36 Matthew 25 ect
green (heaven)
few get that
it's eternal \ for ever, forever
by faith alone that produces fruit
yellow ( our time on earth)
is now our time of grace,
is now where God searches the heart for faith
is now what God bases his judgement on why one gets the green or red
red (hell)
a light that was prepared for Satan and the other devils
many will get the red because they reject the green during the yellow phase of existence
UR counters with .... all will eventually gets the green light for "________" (whatever fits their adjective of life beyond death)
It's not a matter of being less loving or "crucial to being truly 'saved' ".
It's about exposing the false message that all will eventually gets the green light.
Moderator cut: edit
Last edited by june 7th; 01-19-2013 at 05:44 AM..
Reason: Link wouldn't open to what you wanted...Claimed it was too large to be opened.
You're on the right track. It does require a hardened heart to embrace the doctrine of ET. Otherwise the ETers would spend every possible moment out in the streets pleading with people to "get saved". They would not ever have time to relax, go on vacation, shop, watch T.V. for entertainment or other such things while they could be out snatching people from the lake of fire - unless, of course, they put their own pleasures above saving people from such an indescribably miserable and eternal fate. The doctrine fails on every level of reasonableness. The doctrine makes God into a crazed lunatic.
Those who cannot harden their hearts are the ones who wind up having the nervous breakdowns from the doctrine and there are many who have including myself many years ago. I could not enjoy anything because of my belief in it. I just cried my heart out for many years because of it and worried myself sick. Until I found out the truth.
Thanks for your thought provoking thread.
This is something that is overlooked in all the conflict and confusion over doctrine and dogma, Heartsong. ET is a major stumbling block to "love of God and each other." Those who are listening to their heart are emotionally traumatized by the "precepts and doctrines of men" promoted by the churches. The more sensitive they are . . . the more vulnerable they are to emotional breakdown. If there is any good news in such a travesty . . . it is that they can be certain their hearts are very close to God's Holy Spirit.
I won't repeat what you say he hates above.....but the Bible does say that he hates some. He hated Esau...not just Esau's actions. He hates Esau.
Jesus also died for Esau.
"
God hated this world of sinners, yet he loved those same sinners. From a human emotional perspective, it is a contradiction. Ancient Semitic people understood exactly how these love/hate statements were intended according to their language traditions: "the language of absoluteness to express a preference."
Regarding God's hate to Esau, Vincent's Word Studies has this to say:
The expression (hatred) is intentionally strong as an expression of moral antipathy. Compare Mat 6:24; Luk 14:26. No idea of malice is implied of course.
The Barnes Commentary on the Bible has this to say:
"Have I hated" - This does not mean any positive hatred; but that he had preferred Jacob, and had withheld from Esau those privileges and blessings which he had conferred on the posterity of Jacob.
Hi Trimac20 I think that most people who believe in ET believe that because it is what they are taught and it fulfills their sense of justice. People who don't accept Jesus are not quite as good as those who do so they deserve punishment. It give them the "human" desire to be "better than others" People like Hitler, Osama, and the like deserve to be in pain for all the pain they have caused, " it's only fair" The trouble with this type of reasoning is that God is so high above us we don't understand always why He does what He does.
God is creating a family. He is making his children over in his image. He is a loving Father and like any loving Father his main goal is to make his children better and to be like him, and yes that includes Hitler and Osama, as despicable as they are in this life. He will use his "judgments" to make them reap what they have sown and through this process ,He knows exactly what to do to reach their heart, and they will understand everything and they will be changes and repent.
In other words "fair" to God involves not punishing his children forever but making them better and perfect like He is. Punishing someone with no end serves no purpose punishment is to correct bad behavior. Punishment for punishments sake is just cruel and sadistic, that is not God.
No, I do not believe people who believe in UR are more loving than other Christians, or even some atheists, or Muslims, etc.
I have known atheists who were the most loving, kind, giving people. I cleaned a house and a business for a Muslim couple and they were awesome. I heard some of their prayers and they were truly merciful, even though the do believe in hell.
I was in 'ET' churches for most of my life and I saw sacrificial, loving people there. One minister would have given the shirt off his back to someone in need. I loved that man's nature and felt so much peace in his presence. There are just some people like that.
I do think that, for the most part, UR's tend to be more forgiving in the long term. Perhaps a bit more understanding of those who do evil deeds (tho none of us is perfect...yet). I still struggle sometimes with anger over atrocities but I can fall back on the fact that all wrongs will be made right and all evil turned for good in the end.
Love is a gift, and as with any gift, we must exercise its use for it to grow.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
