Do you consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be part of Christianity? (traditions, Lutherans)

[beeveenh]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, I believe I am a Christian. Thankfully, God has given the authority to do judging to Jesus...not to Mike555 or anyone else.

Salvation is a free gift. God didn't have to provide a plan for salvation...He could've destroyed the human family. What 'works' are you implying we do to get salvation?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

1John 4:14,15 We have seen and testify that the father has sent his son to be the savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God."

I try to live my life according to bible principles/God's standards. I'm not perfect, but I try to make myself a friend to God. I try to follow the model his son left for us to follow. I believe in Jesus and the ransom he paid with his perfect life. In the end, it doesn't matter what any other human thinks.

[Griffis]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Baloney. Obviously you've never READ the New Testament. Specifically Colossians and John's Gospel. They hammer home the point that Jesus is God.

And they were not a part of canonical scripture until into the third century AD. Prior to that, there were many branches of Christianity which did not accept the divinity of Jesus.

Actually, even after that time there were many Christians who did not accept the divinity of Jesus. However, they were wiped out--genocide, essentially--in various crusades in the first millennium AD.

Incidentally, you don't know me or what I have done in my life. I have read The Bible multiple times in multiple translations. I have studied some biblical Greek and Hebrew. I have studied The Bible since I was 12 years old, on my own, in various church groups and in master's-level university coursework. I very nearly entered seminary school at one point in my life.

Originally Posted by Mike555

Since you do not even believe in God, it is pointless to go into it with you. And there are not many reputable scholars who would deny at least the historical existence of Jesus whether they believe what the Bible says about Him or not.

I am open to the idea that a god or gods exist. I do not say there is absolutely no way any kind of god exists in some form somewhere in the universe or in some dimension of reality. No human knows whether there is a god (or gods) or not. There is not now nor has there ever been any evidence whatsoever to indicate that such beings exist, but this does not mean they absolutely do not.

I also do not deny the historical existence of Jesus. I personally believe the man Jesus did exist. I sometimes say "allegedly" when discussing the life and teachings of Jesus because there is a debate about such things and some (a small minority) of scholars do debate that Jesus actually lived.

While it may be that a god or gods do exist, my studies and researches (which are extensive) have led me to the perfectly rational conclusion (for which here is a mountain of evidence) that the god Yahweh--just like every other god ever imagined, worshipped, written of and prayed to by humans--is merely mythological and legendary.

However, it may well be that Yahweh, along with the other gods in the Hebrew, Hindu, Greco-Roman, Norse, Native American, etc., etc. pantheons are reflections of a greater reality in which there is some ultimate God or Godhead which has revealed itself to humans--or with which humans have somehow interacted with, connected with, or communicated with in some way--some kind of being or entity (possibly even a Creator) which has let itself be known to different cultures throughout history and across the globe in various ways for various reasons.

But, that said, there is certainly no reason whatsoever for any person of any faith or belief system to make the claim that only their specific god is real and that all others are false and "just made up" or that only their holy writings are true and all others are false.

That's just groundless infantile nonsense.

"Yahweh" is no more "real" than Vishnu, Zeus or Thor, and there is absolutely no evidence to back up such an empty claim.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by Griffis

And they were not a part of canonical scripture until into the third century AD. Prior to that, there were many branches of Christianity which did not accept the divinity of Jesus.

Actually, Paul's letters were referred to as scripture by Peter in the 1st Century. Those that didn't believe Jesus is God were heretics.

Actually, even after that time there were many Christians who did not accept the divinity of Jesus. However, they were wiped out--genocide, essentially--in various crusades in the first millennium AD.

They were heretics. Not saying it was right to kill anyone over religion.

Incidentally, you don't know me or what I have done in my life. I have read The Bible multiple times in multiple translations. I have studied some biblical Greek and Hebrew. I have studied The Bible since I was 12 years old, on my own, in various church groups and in master's-level university coursework. I very nearly entered seminary school at one point in my life.

Good for you. I also read Greek. I have been to Seminary. I currently pastor a church.

Now that we got that out of the way...

But, that said, there is certainly no reason whatsoever for any person of any faith or belief system to make the claim that only their specific god is real and that all others are false and "just made up" or that only their holy writings are true and all others are false.

That's just groundless infantile nonsense.

"Yahweh" is no more "real" than Vishnu, Zeus or Thor, and there is absolutely no evidence to back up such an empty claim.

I remove dmuch of your post because I want to respond to the question at hand.

JW's make the claim that they are part of Christianity. Christianity has, as a core doctrine, that Jesus is God. If you don't agree with that, you worship a god that is different than the one presented in the Bible.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by beeveenh

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, I believe I am a Christian. Thankfully, God has given the authority to do judging to Jesus...not to Mike555 or anyone else.

Actually, if you read Paul, Peter, and John's letters you get the idea that it's very important that we have sound doctrine. We are supposed to make sure we are teaching truth.

Salvation is a free gift. God didn't have to provide a plan for salvation...He could've destroyed the human family. What 'works' are you implying we do to get salvation?

Taken from "You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth-But How?", Watchtower, Feb 15, 1983, page 12-13

"Many have found the second requirement more difficult. It is to obey God's laws, yes, to conform one's life to the moral requirements set out in the Bible. This includes refraining from a debauched, immoral way of life.-1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 4:3, 4."


Included in that, it goes on to say that you need to be in "God's channel" -- the Watchtower organization.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life; that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

1John 4:14,15 We have seen and testify that the father has sent his son to be the savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God."

I try to live my life according to bible principles/God's standards. I'm not perfect, but I try to make myself a friend to God. I try to follow the model his son left for us to follow. I believe in Jesus and the ransom he paid with his perfect life. In the end, it doesn't matter what any other human thinks.

The only thing that will make you righteous before God is Jesus' death on the cross (or torture stake if it makes you feel better). But if he isn't God...he's just another man. I can't get your sin forgiven by dying myself...we need a pure and spotless lamb to die in our place.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by beeveenh

I try to live my life according to bible principles/God's standards. I'm not perfect, but I try to make myself a friend to God. I try to follow the model his son left for us to follow. I believe in Jesus and the ransom he paid with his perfect life. In the end, it doesn't matter what any other human thinks.

As a Mormon, I believe that both you and I are Christians. I also agree with you that, "in the end, it doesn't matter what any other human thinks." Some people seem to be of the opinion that when we all stand before God to be judged, He's going to be asking for their input. I think they're going to be in for a very rude awakening when they discover that He has it all under control Himself and doesn't care what they think. When you get right down to it, it's not going to matter to Him how these people judged you or me, but it is going to matter to Him that they judged us at all.

[Griffis]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Actually, Paul's letters were referred to as scripture by Peter in the 1st Century.

So what? Who cares what Paul allegedly said about anything?

Those that didn't believe Jesus is God were heretics.

Plenty of sects of early Christians didn't believe Jesus was God. That was arbitrarily "decided" centuries after Jesus' death.

They were heretics.

Not for hundreds of years they weren't. Not until The Church arbitrarily made that call hundreds of years afterwards.

Not saying it was right to kill anyone over religion.

Nope, but yet it has happened all through history and continues to happen today. Particularly in the three Abrahamic religions.

Christianity has, as a core doctrine, that Jesus is God. If you don't agree with that, you worship a god that is different than the one presented in the Bible.

Not really. Not at all. In fact, you could not be more incorrect. Jews and Muslims all worship the same god that Jesus did--the God of Abraham. Neither Jews nor Muslims believe Jesus is of one substance with God, yet they worship the same god as the one from the Old Testament.

The Bible itself as we know it today was formulated by committee and also quite arbitrarily. Some books (including supposed gospels) were considered worthy of inclusion; some were discarded. Some of the discarded texts were in use by very devout early Christians well before the accepted canon we know today was in use.

But you should already know all of this.

[hljc]

I remember some ladies from Jehovah witness would come around and read the scripture at my door ... for some months ... Then I told them that I was born again and went to a Evangelical church .... They argued a little , and I told them that I would pray for them , and they gave me a magazine against being Born again and left and never came back ..... Jesus said ` ``Very truly I say to you , Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God..``.... I do not think Jehovah Witness believe in Jesus Christ , because they do not honor the Words of Jesus , as being born again in the spirit is the core promise blessing from the Kingdom of God

[Mr. Opinionated]

In spite of my username, I try not to let my opinion, whether I happen to agree or like how a group may go about practicing their faith. Especially if they pose no threat to my existence.
I think that defines respect. And I would say that any group that calls itself after Jesus's last name should be at least, be attempting to emulate his example of perfection of his character and principles as outlined in the Bible scripture. This doesnt mean that all professing Christianity will be without fault, and none should pretend to be, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ~Romans 3:23.

But as I see it, as long as they...

• Try to follow closely the teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ.—1 Peter 2:21.
  
• Believe that Jesus is the key to salvation, that “there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”—Acts 4:12.
  
• Are indoctrinated, they are baptized in the name of Jesus.—Matthew 28:18, 19.
  
• Always offer prayers in Jesus’ name.—John 15:16.
  
• And believe that Jesus is the Head, or the one appointed to have authority, over every man.—1 Corinthians 11:3

Then they are qualified to call themselves Christian. And anyone else who claims to be a dedicated follower of Christ's teachings, rather than their own reasoning, appreciates what Jesus warned in his Sermon on the Mount: “Stop judging that you may not be judged.” (Matthew 7:1) And he added: “Stop condemning, and you will by no means be condemned.” Jesus showed his awareness that imperfect humans have a tendency to be judgmental.
Any of his listeners who were in the habit of harshly judging others were to stop it.

It is all too easy to sit and judge others, criticizing their faults and questioning their motives. But who of us would want God to scrutinize our motives and shortcomings the same way? But that is not how Jehovah deals with us. The psalmist observed: “If errors were what you watch, Lord, who could stand?” Are we not grateful that our just and merciful God chooses not to dwell on our failings? (Psalm 103:8-10) How, then, should we treat others?

[PBZ1113]

To inform you, I used to study with JWs for almost 6 months. I even went to the Kingdom Hall a few times. They were the nicest and friendly people I have ever met in my life. Well, I quitted because I realized that the religion is not for me. I found my home in the Episcopal Church and I love it! However, I still respect JWs and their dedication to their faith.

I still think that JWs do believe in Jesus Christ. Although their emphasis is mostly on Jehovah (God), they do include Jesus Christ the Son who lived and died for our sins in their prayers. It is just that the lack of Trinity and God being superior of all bother most Christians about JWs.

I think there are misconceptions about the Watchtower Organization. Watchtower serves mainly as a guidance for JWs how to lead their church properly and is responsible for all published works and magazines to inform both the public and other JWs how to better themselves in their everyday life when it comes to raising family, managing money, and how to avoid temptations, etc. I honestly think that churches providing those on how to better yourself outside church services and bible study are awesome and we need more of those.

Although I do admit that JWs are very different from traditional Christians, I never felt being brainwashed or being controlled during my time with JWs. JWs is a close knit community and they are very conservative in their beliefs and very expecting of works along with faith.

[Ringwielder]

As this thread progresses it just proves my point I made about the many interpretations of Scripture, how it is so obvious and clearly stated in the Scriptures this and that, when it clearly isn't clear and obvious. If it was, there would be no argument about what God or Jesus meant. There can be an argument made for the trinity from the bible, and likewise an argument against the trinity. And why, if it is not clearly stated in the bible, say for instance like in the Athanasian creed, is it so damned important? God obviously didn't think so.

Coming back to the JWs... They serve men as much as any other organized religion. They have to believe what their governing body tells them. For instance, one belief has changed 5 times since the mid 1990's and if you continue to believe the old interpretations, then you will be disfellowshipped and if you chose to believe the latest take before the Society brought it out, you could be disfellowshipped if you voiced that belief loudly enough.

There are only a few sects of Christianity who are as harsh and controlling as that.