The Bible doesn't merely contain the Word of God, it Is the Inerrant Word of God (doctrine, Revelation)

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Pleroo

You say, based on John 1:1, that God = the Word.

You also say Jesus = the Word, therefore Jesus = God.


However, then you say:
God = Word and Word = bible; but bible does not = God.

You further have the problem that you believe:
Word = Jesus, Word = bible, but bible does not = Jesus.



What you have is a confusing mess.

What I said, and what the Bible says, is that the phrase 'the word of God' is applied both to Jesus and to the Bible. There is nothing confusing about it.

[Katzpur]

Which translation is the inerrant one?

[Michael Way]

Moderator cut: Deleted This thread is not about the geneologies, or about the so called contradictions between Matthew and Luke regarding when He was born, or any other so called contradictions.

The topic of this thread is to show that the Bible makes the claim for itself to be the word of God in refutiation of those who claim to be believers that it is not. This thread is not to intended to convince skeptics who don't believe in God, or who while perhaps believing in God don't believe that Christ is God, of that fact.

It has been shown that Jesus Himself called the Scriptures the word of God. That is the topic.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Mike555

It has been shown that Jesus Himself called the Scriptures the word of God. That is the topic.

That's true, but I think we need to be able to ascertain that "the scriptures" Jesus was referring to have not been modified in any way since He said that and that no errors of transcription or translation have crept in. There seems to be a fair amount of evidence that this is not the case. Take, for example, the Jehovah's Witnesses translation of the Bible. I suspect that you would not call it "inerrant." How do you know which translations are perfect?

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Which translation is the inerrant one?

As I already told a previous poster, I made it clear in the original post that divine inspiration applies only to the original autographs. Not to the manuscript copies, which however, by way of the sheer number of copies do preserve God's word. But that is a topic for Textual criticism which is not being addressed in this thread.

[Geoff_in_Aus]

Originally Posted by Mike555

The topic of this thread is to show that the Bible makes the claim for itself to be the word of God in refutation of those who claim to be believers that it is not.

I am sure you have been told before that is circular logic. It only makes sense to those, like you, who hold that it is inerrant. Even Jesus did not teach along those lines. He said "Test my words". But you don't, and the more so, because you don't know what it is he asked them to test. But I have told you what it is he said, and you ignored it, as I expected. It does not fit your view of what Jesus taught.

This is all your right of course. I won't badger you again. But when you pass over, as you will, you will be infuriated to find things not as per your views. And you will turn against Jesus, if you follow the common pattern. Yet its not his fault that you don't know what he taught.

[elamigo]

Originally Posted by Mike555

It goes without saying that Jesus Christ is the Word of God as both John 1:1,14 and Revelation 19:13 reveal.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Revelation 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.



What is equally true, but which some deny, is that the Bible is also the word of God. As Jesus reveals the Father, so also the Bible is God's revelation of Himself and His plan to man. The word 'Logos' refers both to Jesus Christ and to written Scripture.

It is interesting to note that in both Romans 9:17 and Galatians 3:8 God and Scripture are so closely identified that they are treated as one and the same. That does not mean that the Bible is God, but only that it is God's word.

Romans 9:17 For the Scripture (graphé) says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed thoughtout the whole earth."

Galatians 3:8 The Scripture (graphé), foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "all the nations will be blessed in you".

The Scriptures had not been written at that point. In the case of Romans 9:17 in which Paul refers to Exodus 9:16, God spoke to Pharaoh through Moses. And in the case of Galatians 3:8 in which Paul refers back to Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18; and 26:4, God spoke to Abraham.

Paul recognized that whether God speaks directly as He did to Abraham, or through a prophet as in the case of Moses speaking God's word to Pharaoh, or in the case of the written Scripture, it is all God's word. The word of God is both spoken and written. Understanding this, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul was authorized to identify what God had spoken to Abraham and to Pharaoh through Moses as Scripture. The written Scriptures are the word of God. God's word in writing.



Now what did Jesus call Scripture?

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45] Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures (graphé),

Jesus was referring to the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms, which takes in the entire Old Testament as Scripture and therefore, the word of God.

In Matthew 15:3-6 Jesus tells the Pharisees who were violating the the commandment (entolé) of God with reference to the command to honor your father and mother, [v.4] in favor of their tradition, that they were therefore invalidating the word (logon) of God. Here, 'logon' is used for the word of God with reference to the law of Moses which was recorded in the Scriptures.

For those of you who don't accept the Old Testament as the word of God because you don't like some of the things which are found in it, claiming that God would never command such a thing, notice that it was Jesus who said the following in Matthew 15:4 "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.' The command to put to death anyone who curses father or mother [under the Mosaic Law, which we are not under today] was given in Exodus 21:17, and Leviticus 20:9. Jesus therefore identified the Mosaic Law as the word of God.

The question then becomes, do you not believe what Jesus Himself said concerning the fact that God Himself gave the command as a part of the Mosaic Law that those who curse their father or mother were to be put to death? Some of you say that you will only accept what Jesus Himself says as God's word. Well, Jesus Himself said that it was the command of God to put to death under the Mosaic Law those who curse their father or mother, and He said it was the word of God. So do you believe Jesus or don't you?



Divine Inspiration of the Scriptures

2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 approach the divine inspiration of the Scriptures from two different angles.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired (theopneustos; theós - God; pnéō - breathed; God-breathed; breathed out by God) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

All Scripture is inspired by God. This refers to the original autographs only. Inspiration literally means that all Scripture is God-breathed which means that all Scripture originates with God who breathed out His message. All Scripture is God-given and God-determined.

Now this does not mean that the entire Bible was dictated to the human authors, though some parts were. For example, the Ten Commandments and Revelation chapters 2 and 3 were dictated as were passages which start out saying 'Now the word of the LORD came to me saying...', as in Jeremiah 1:4 and 2:1 to name just two. But in the communication of His message to the human authors of the Bible, they were borne along or carried along by the Holy Spirit in such a manner as to guarantee that the original autographs were recorded with absolute accuracy and inerrancy. And while God did not provide the scribes who made copies of the original autographs with the same superintending ministry so as to guarantee those copies to be free from error, He did nevertheless provide for the preservation of His word by means of the sheer number of copies which have come down to us today. But that's getting into textual criticism which is not the topic of this thread.

2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation (originates from one's own disclosure), 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved (pheró; carried along, borne along) by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

In the communication of Scripture which originated with God (God-breathed), the Holy Spirit so carried along the human writers of Scripture that while allowing them the use of their own personality, literary style, vocabulary, and feelings, God's complete message (that which He chose to communicate to man) was permanently recorded in writing.



To keep this post from being too long, I'll stop with the above, though there is so very much more which can be said to show that the Bible is indeed the word of God!

I do not believe it is the word of God. However, for the sake of argument, the way God is portrayed in the Bible is inconsistent philosophically. That is my take on the Bible. The way God is portrayed in the Bible is not the same Jesus describes.
In the old testament you see a self centered God demanding worship or else. It also reflects a God that has not sense of true justice. King David lust for this married woman, makes her his. Oh! she is married. Then when he finds out that she is pregnant makes sure the husband is killed in battle. He then gets to keep her and have a son and live happily ever after. Who paid the price, the baby when she got pregnant when she was married!!!!
Also, for him to prove how faithful a man is he allows the devil to do all kinds of horrible things to Job. God new Job as a God fearing man and he allows for him to go through such test just to show the devil something?!
Another one, he leads the isrealites out of Egypt and when they finally arrive to the promised land he tells them to kill every woman and child!!!! Wow! I suppose we imperfect humans are more merciful in war thus came up with such a thing as the Geneva Convention. I forgot, he ordered all first born to die so the pharoah give in and let the isrealites go. Wow! Again, inocent lives pay the price.
How about poor Moses. He put up with so much for 40 long years leading the isrealites through the desert. Now, just because he lost his temper once God did not allow him to enter the promised land!!!
Morals? It is claimed that God's moral views never change. Well, I beg to differ. If he originally had in mind one man for one woman, why did he compromise on morals and allowed the isrealites to have more than one wife and later changed it?
Does God allow deceit/lying/cheating? How about allowing Jacob to deceive his father to get a blessing? God did not condem that, did he? He actually allowed Jacob to be the chosen one know he deceived his own father. Did he say anything against Lot's daughters for getting him drunk and having sex with him?
He never said anything against allowing a prostitute to help the israelites when Joshua went to do his spy work, did he?
The bottom line God gave his blessing and favor to many men that behaved unethically/unmorally in serving God.
Jesus does provide a lot of good moral principles that to me do not match the God in the old testament.

I do believe the Bible is a good book to read, some very good stories that to me simply show human nature and the good and bad consequences of our good and bad behavior.
If God is really the way he is portrayed in the old testament, I am doomed. However, I refuse to believe it is this way. The morals that god displays are not very good in my opinion.
Take care.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Geoff_in_Aus

I am sure you have been told before that is circular logic. It only makes sense to those, like you, who hold that it is inerrant. Even Jesus did not teach along those lines. He said "Test my words". But you don't, and the more so, because you don't know what it is he asked them to test. But I have told you what it is he said, and you ignored it, as I expected. It does not fit your view of what Jesus taught.

This is all your right of course. I won't badger you again. But when you pass over, as you will, you will be infuriated to find things not as per your views. And you will turn against Jesus, if you follow the common pattern. Yet its not his fault that you don't know what he taught.

Jesus Himself said that the Scriptures are the word of God. And since the Scriptures are the word of God, the Bible is therefore inerrant. He also said that the Scripture cannot be broken. And I said, for the third time now on this thread, that divine inspiration refers to the original autographs only.

The Bible's claim that it is the word of God is not circular logic since it backs up its claim with historically verifiable fulfulled prophecy. But neither is that the topic of this thread. The topic is that the Bible claims to be the word of God. If you don't accept what the Bible says, that's your business. I already made it clear that I am not trying to convince skeptics. I am stating what the Bible says about itself.


I assure you, I know what Jesus taught. It is arrogant presumption on your part to suggest that I will reject Jesus.

Moderator cut: deleted

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by SAAN

I want you to compare a Tyndale bible, with the 1611 KJV bible, with all the versions we have now and you can find many differences and see that through all these transliterations and translations by man, we do not have what the 100% original said. Books have been removed and other things have been added.

2 Tim 3:16 was written before there was even a new testament, so that verse is referring to the OT at the time, since Paul would not go around boasting about his letters/teachings.

The bibles we have today is just what God intended for us to have.

Beside all that, the entire Bible is summarized and Love God and Love your neighbor, so no matter what our bible says now compared to when it was written is still comes back to Love God and Love one another.

As I said in the original post, divine inspiration applies only to the original autographs. However, God has preserved His word through the vast numbers of manuscript copies which have come down to us, and which by means of textual criticism, the historical reliability of the text can be seen to be preserved despite the variations and errors in the individual manuscripts. We don't have the original autographs, but we do have the preserved word of God.

And again, this isn't the topic. The topic is that the Bible is by its own claim, the word of God.

And the New Testament is just as much Scripture as is the Old Testament. Peter equated Paul's epistles with the Old Testament Scriptures (2 Peter 3:16). The book of Revelation starts out by saying 'The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His bond servants, the things which must soon take place, and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John (Rev. 1:1). That's Scripture. That's the word of God.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Mike555

As I already told a previous poster, I made it clear in the original post that divine inspiration applies only to the original autographs.

Gotcha. In that case, I essentially agree with you.