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Well, I haven't read every word of every post here, but I do have a question for you cg81.
If what you say is accurate, and Revelations was written after Christ's death and resurrection, then why was it written if we were already in that period of time?
I'm assuming this period of time began at the Resurrection or at the very latest the Assention when the Holy Spirit was sent to indwell, so why write this portion of Revelations if, in fact, the writer was in this period while it was being written.
I apologize if you've already covered that above, but admittedly I haven't read all the posts.
I don't know why, exactly (of course!) but IMO this was a glorious vision of the plan unfolding. I'm not sure how to put my thoughts into words, but I think of it as a "vision", not only a look into the future, but a vision of real events and of what was happening and what was to come... it also offers encouragement to those that are reigning that God will be with us to the end, and warnings about the apostasy that surrounds us and the "loosing of Satan.".. a complete package.
I don't know why, exactly (of course!) but IMO this was a glorious vision of the plan unfolding. I'm not sure how to put my thoughts into words, but I think of it as a "vision", not only a look into the future, but a vision of real events and of what was happening and what was to come... it also offers encouragement to those that are reigning that God will be with us to the end, and warnings about the apostasy that surrounds us and the "loosing of Satan.".. a complete package.
Well, I'll have to look at all this a little closer, interesting topic. I've never been caught up on prophecy too much. It's all I can do to think about today.
Still, if this is "a glorious vision of the plan unfolding", I find it difficult to understand why the scriptures would include a part of the plan that had already unfolded. In other words, John would have known he was already in that period of time.
Well, I'll have to look at all this a little closer, interesting topic. I've never been caught up on prophecy too much. It's all I can do to think about today.
Ditto for me. True to form, I went ahead and voted in the poll that I think it is future events...even though I'm basically clueless what I'm talking about! (You know opinionated kaykay will not usually be caught without an opinion of some kind on any given subject, right?) But seriously, this sounds bad but I guess that has not been something I have had a whole lot of interest in so I haven't studied or pondered on it.
Still, if this is "a glorious vision of the plan unfolding", I find it difficult to understand why the scriptures would include a part of the plan that had already unfolded. In other words, John would have known he was already in that period of time.
I do believe that John knew he was already in that period of time.. he was simply relating his vision. It sure would have been helpful if he would have written "footnotes"! I would encourage you to study this further...when you have time!
I also dont think mog and magog have happened yet..just for reading on this subject..However I dont believe everything I read..(except the Bible) of course.
So Cg81 where does the anitchrist, the numbers 666, the false prophet, the rebuilding of the temple, fall into place..?
How can we be reigning WITH Christ..if he hasnt come back yet?
As far as the antichrist, here are some verses:
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
I'm sure you'll agree with me that there are many false prophets.. "Christian" leaders that are promoting unrighteousness, and denying the way of the cross.
Number 666, I don't know what that means exactly.. but it talks about people having the mark of the beast and worshiping his image. How many Christians today are not worshiping "the beast"? Affluence, luxury, worldliness, "denying the power of God".. and they gladly and unashamedly bear the mark. Those are just thots that came to me right now.. may have to do some more studying on that and the rebuilding of the temple.
How can we reign with Christ? The disciples were looking forward to a literal kingdom, but Jesus quite strongly told them it would not be so..."The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo, here! or lo, there! for, behold the kingdom of God is within you"(Luke 17:20,21)
"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not"(Matt. 24:23)
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Matthew 20:20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
It seems like before Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit came down, the people around Him and even the disciples were expecting a literal kingdom. But not one mention is made of this after Pentecost.. rather, that we were "pilgrims and strangers, with no continuing city."
As far as how we are reigning... if we are part of a kingdom, we are reigning, aren't we? Reigning over sin.. and joint-heirs with Christ. The idea that we will physically reign over unbelievers runs counter to Christ's message, IMO.
Well, just a thought on the 666 thing, scripture does say if I remember correctly, that if you take the mark of the beast, you will NOT be in heaven. So I think it's a little more definite and specific and I would say "literal" than being materialistic etc. Those would be "forgivable" sins which could be repented of. If I read it correctly, taking the mark of the beast is irrevocable. Does that make sense? I don't have a Bible here to look any of this up right now. Just some thoughts and comments...
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 6:15 ¶ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Matthew 20:20 ¶ Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
It seems like before Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit came down, the people around Him and even the disciples were expecting a literal kingdom. But not one mention is made of this after Pentecost.. rather, that we were "pilgrims and strangers, with no continuing city."
I have always understood these verses to be speaking strictly of the time that Christ actually lived on earth. I have never heard of them being applied to the 1000 years.
Well, just a thought on the 666 thing, scripture does say if I remember correctly, that if you take the mark of the beast, you will NOT be in heaven. So I think it's a little more definite and specific and I would say "literal" than being materialistic etc. Those would be "forgivable" sins which could be repented of. If I read it correctly, taking the mark of the beast is irrevocable. Does that make sense? I don't have a Bible here to look any of this up right now. Just some thoughts and comments...
kaykay, I have always believed that as well, but I don't see it in the passage that gives the number of the beast.
Revelation 13:16-18 (NIV)
16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
However, what I did notice was that it says that no one could buy or sell unless they have the mark. I don't think it is giving into materialism to buy groceries or gasoline, etc. Those are necessities. I don't see how this could pertain to materialism.
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(You know opinionated kaykay will not usually be caught without an opinion of some kind on any given subject, right?
