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● Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished
● Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked
Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is quite simple: forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.
In other words; though God forgives the guilty, He never clears the guilty; viz: forgiveness in the Old Testament is merely a reprieve; which Webster's defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is sentenced to death. In point of fact, Yom Kippur, though a day of cleansing, is also a day for the Jews to remember that their sins are still on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.
But God has devised a procedure for rescuing the Jews from their rather precarious position.
● Isa 53:5-6 . . He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Yhvh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.
Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for substitutions; they're not enough. No, the soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact, that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for their sins.
So; in order for Christ's crucifixion to protect people from a second physical death in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15, it has to be, in some way, accounted as their own crucifixion as well as his; and God has invented an ingenious way for them to do that very thing by means of a baptism that involves neither clergy nor H2O.
● 1Cor 12:12-13 . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Seeing as how this particular baptism is supernatural rather than physical, then of course it's to be expected to make no sense whatsoever. However, in a nutshell; what this particular baptism does is make people participants in Christ's crucifixion instead of merely observers.
● Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
● Rom 6:6 . .Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him
Jesus Christ crucifixion came to Jesus who was already the son of God , as if it came to a person of the world them God could not accept the sacrifice , but innocent Jesus murder was a capital offense to God , .......So God could use this offense as Jesus soul was made into a offering for sin from the prophetic Word of Jesus to come from Isaiah 53:10 ........ See the whole evil spirits who hold spiritual authority over all sin , and was blamed also for the cross of Christ , so resisting the evil spirit and sin go together as the Judgment of the cross of Christ can forgive sin by God grace in this judgment for people who side with Jesus Christ .................So all grace of God come through this judgment from the cross of Jesus Christ , like if people seek out God for His grace and with out of the will of God , which is to keep sin and the devil out then the grace of God will not come
● Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished
● Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked
Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is quite simple: forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.
In other words; though God forgives the guilty, He never clears the guilty; viz: forgiveness in the Old Testament is merely a reprieve; which Webster's defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is sentenced to death. In point of fact, Yom Kippur, though a day of cleansing, is also a day for the Jews to remember that their sins are still on the books, hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.
But God has devised a procedure for rescuing the Jews from their rather precarious position.
● Isa 53:5-6 . . He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Yhvh has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him.
Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for substitutions; they're not enough. No, the soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact, that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for their sins.
So; in order for Christ's crucifixion to protect people from a second physical death in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15, it has to be, in some way, accounted as their own crucifixion as well as his; and God has invented an ingenious way for them to do that very thing by means of a baptism that involves neither clergy nor H2O.
● 1Cor 12:12-13 . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Seeing as how this particular baptism is supernatural rather than physical, then of course it's to be expected to make no sense whatsoever. However, in a nutshell; what this particular baptism does is make people participants in Christ's crucifixion instead of merely observers.
● Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
● Rom 6:6 . .Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him
● Gal 2:20 . .I am crucified with Christ
● Col 3:3 . .For you died when Christ died
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I am glad you started this thread. I hope a lot of fruitful discussion can come from it. It is clear that our mortal flesh must still be subjected to earthly death even though we have received life through faith in Jesus Christ. And the wages of sin require this. Otherwise, "getting saved" would have the automatic reward of being "changed" into immortality on the spot. I'm sure that would be a very popular religion too if it worked that way, but that is not God's plan for us. If, as the scriptures say, Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered, I wonder why we think this would be any less true of God's plan for us. Suffering has always been a tool used to help me grow in grace and in knowledge and understanding and wisdom. If I had never suffered in this life, I sure wouldn't be who I am today! I hope to share more in this thread and look forward to other enlightening posts regarding this very worthwhile topic.
I don't believe it is necessary to suffer, although I do hope that people learn from it.
I don't believe all suffering is ordained by God. And I believe a lot of suffering is unnecessary. However, if all suffering is unnecessary, then I would be left wondering why God subjected us to mortality which, of course brings suffering. And the scriptures are clear that God did subject man to mortality for a purpose. For myself, and my understanding, the purpose of being subjected to mortality/futility/suffering was so that we could understand the difference between good and evil. In fact, is that not why Adam and Eve were allowed to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the beginning - so that they could have the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. However, to have the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL comes with a cost. It even cost GOD his son and the suffering of all in Adam to allow us to understand such things.
Without suffering, you would not know anything. That is just the way it is. There is no other way. Even Jesus asked his Father... if there is any other way that that I should drink this cup ... nevertheless, thy will be done. We also have a cup of pain to drink. If you haven't had a taste of it, I feel sorry for you. It is not pleasant. I think you probably have tasted the cup of death, but perhaps just don't know how to express what you are taking about. Or maybe you are an angel and not a mortal? I dunno.
I don't believe all suffering is ordained by God. And I believe a lot of suffering is unnecessary. However, if all suffering is unnecessary, then I would be left wondering why God subjected us to mortality which, of course brings suffering. And the scriptures are clear that God did subject man to mortality for a purpose. For myself, and my understanding, the purpose of being subjected to mortality/futility/suffering was so that we could understand the difference between good and evil. In fact, is that not why Adam and Eve were allowed to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the beginning - so that they could have the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. However, to have the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL comes with a cost. It even cost GOD his son and the suffering of all in Adam to allow us to understand such things.
Without suffering, you would not know anything. That is just the way it is. There is no other way. Even Jesus asked his Father... if there is any other way that that I should drink this cup ... nevertheless, thy will be done. We also have a cup of pain to drink. If you haven't had a taste of it, I feel sorry for you. It is not pleasant. I think you probably have tasted the cup of death, but perhaps just don't know how to express what you are taking about. Or maybe you are an angel and not a mortal? I dunno.
I have had my fair share of pain and anguish, but it hasn't changed who I am. However, I do not see it as a great/powerful/strong motivator, either...
I don't believe it is necessary to suffer, although I do hope that people learn from it.
Suffering does NOT exist for any being without our conscious awareness. It is the contemplation of it, NOT the physical reality that produces suffering. A bird can die frozen to a wire in winter without EVER having felt sorry for itself. Suffering is unique to our conscious awareness.
Suffering does NOT exist for any being without our conscious awareness. It is the contemplation of it, NOT the physical reality that produces suffering. A bird can die frozen to a wire in winter without EVER having felt sorry for itself. Suffering is unique to our conscious awareness.
I wish it was true but it's not.
I've seen - and heart-breakingly heard - a goose mourn a shot mate. Many species of animals mourn a lost mate or child. They suffer emotionally.
And I've seen deer in a harsh winter who are not much more than leather-clad bones. You can't tell me they aren't suffering.
More beings other than humans have consciousness to greater degrees than you credit.
Last edited by TroutDude; 12-09-2016 at 09:12 PM..
Reason: Removed "or lesser."
Suffering does NOT exist for any being without our conscious awareness. It is the contemplation of it, NOT the physical reality that produces suffering. A bird can die frozen to a wire in winter without EVER having felt sorry for itself. Suffering is unique to our conscious awareness.
Suffering does NOT exist for any being without our conscious awareness. It is the contemplation of it, NOT the physical reality that produces suffering. A bird can die frozen to a wire in winter without EVER having felt sorry for itself. Suffering is unique to our conscious awareness.
Mammals are very emotional and need love. They mourn. Elephants mourn the deaths of other elephants, especially baby elephants. So I disagree with you that only humans suffer, as well as disagreeing with you that only humans have consciousness. Reptiles don't suffer much because they represent the unfeeling part of the species. Birds to make emotional attachments to humans in captivity and birds fall in love. We are all connected. I had a vision once of how different parts of the animal kingdom represent the different parts of mankind's being. But I cannot really explain it to anyone. It's been a good number of years back that I had the vision and I was quite amazed by it, but I knew it was not something for me to share or teach to others - just for me, lest people tell me what a crazy fool I am.
I have known people who seem very reptilian, very unfeeling, unmoved, and untouchable. I don't know why there are humans like that, and only God knows anyone's heart.
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