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Paul wrote before any of the Gospels were written.
Did Paul ever claim that Jesus was himself divine or does he make a distiction between God and Jesus?
Cor 8:5-6 "Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. "(NRSV)
1 Timothy 2:5 " 5For there is one God: there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, (NRSV)
Last edited by ancient warrior; 05-14-2013 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: typo
How about Colossians 1:14-17 where He declares through the Creator GOD's blood we have been redeemed? No "firstborn" is not talking about first created but first in pre-eminence.
Or Acts 20:28 where he states again that GOD has purchased the church by His OWN blood?
There are many other examples where Paul clearly believes Jesus is GOD.
The trinity is an advanced revelation in the new testament. It takes a work of the Spirit in one's heart to see it. The ONE true God has revealed Himself to us in three distinct "persons".
The Son is not the Father, but the Father is in the Son as the Son is in the Father in the Holy Spirit which are all ONE.
There is an organic union in which you can not separate the one from the other.
JESUS is GOD manifest in the flesh thus why by ONLY His blood we can be reconciled to the Father.
There is only ONE sin you would have to answer for if you were to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. That is the rejection of JESUS CHRIST as your Savior and Lord not repenting to God through Him.
The only thing the redeemed will be boasting about is the goodness of GOD in Christ as He redeemed the World unto Himself. Salvation is a gift given to an undeserving sinner that humbles himself in repentance toward God accepting Jesus' sacrifice as a substitute for what WE deserve.
5Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,b being born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6]who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Before Jesus took the form of a bond-servant in the likeness of men, He existed in the form of God meaning that He was God.
Romans 10:13, "For 'WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'"2
Joel 2:32, "“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls."
Comments: The LORD reference here is to Yahweh. However, Paul takes the Lord reference in Joel 2:32 and applies it to Jesus in Romans 10:13.
1 Corinthians 1:31, "So that, just as it is written, 'LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.'"
Jeremiah 9:24, "'But let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,' declares the LORD."
Comments: The Lord in 1 Corinthians 1:31 is a reference to Jesus while the quotation is a reference to Yahweh.
Jeremiah 9:24, "'But let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,' declares the LORD."
Comments: The Lord in the context of 2 Corinthians 10 is Jesus while the Lord in Jeremiah 9:24 is Yahweh.
[quote=Mikelee81;29560779]
>>How about Colossians 1:14-17 where He declares through the Creator GOD'sblood we have been redeemed? No "firstborn" is not talking about first created but first in pre-eminence.<<
RESPONSE:
Please tell us which bible you are quoting from. The creator God is not God the Father.
Col 1:14-7 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. (NRSV)
Paul was a Helenistic (Greek) Jew. The "creator god' was a lesser god called the Demiurge or sometimes the Logos. This lesser god was not eternal however. He was the firstborn of God. Both Paul and later John picked up this concept in their writings.
[see Wikipedia. "Plato, as the speaker Timaeus, refers to the Demiurge frequently in the Socratic dialogueTimaeus, c. 360 BC. The main character refers to the Demiurge as the entity who "fashioned and shaped" the material world"].
>>Or Acts 20:28 where he states again that GOD has purchased the church by His OWN blood?<<
RESPONSE:
My New Revised Standard Versionreads differently. What Bible are you quoting and please give the quote exactly?
Acts 20:28 "Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God* that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.
Again, the blood of his son.
>>There are many other examples where Paul clearly believes Jesus is GOD.<<
RESPONSE:
Then please provide some correct quotations, book, chapter and verse.
>>The trinity is an advanced revelation in the new testament. It takes a work of the Spirit in one's heart to see it. The ONE true God has revealed Himself to us in three distinct "persons".<<
RESPONSE:
The only Trinity reference remaining in the New Testament is found in Matt 29:19 and this appears to have been an interpolation (later addition).
"Within the past hundred years there have been those who brought evidence against the Mathew 28:19 Trinity baptism formula. Men such as F.C. Conybeare, K. Lake, J. Martineau, A. Harnack, A.S. Peake, H. Kosmala, etc. Conybeare is believed to have been the first to write against it, following the discovery of a variant reading of the verse, within the writings of Eusebius of Caesarea. Some 17 times in his works prior to Nicea, Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 as "Go and make disciples of all nations in my name" without mentioning the Trinity baptism command."
Moreover, note that there are four explicit descriptions of baptism in Acts of the Apostles and one in Paul's epistles. They are never made in the name of the Trinity, but in the name of Jesus alone since the Trinity doctrine hadn't been invented yet.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 05-14-2013 at 12:35 PM..
Reason: typo
Romans 10:13, "For 'WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'"2
Joel 2:32, "“And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be delivered; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls."
Comments: The LORD reference here is to Yahweh. However, Paul takes the Lord reference in Joel 2:32 and applies it to Jesus in Romans 10:13.
1 Corinthians 1:31, "So that, just as it is written, 'LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.'"
Jeremiah 9:24, "'But let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,' declares the LORD."
Comments: The Lord in 1 Corinthians 1:31 is a reference to Jesus while the quotation is a reference to Yahweh.
Jeremiah 9:24, "'But let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,' declares the LORD."
Comments: The Lord in the context of 2 Corinthians 10 is Jesus while the Lord in Jeremiah 9:24 is Yahweh.
Paul wrote before any of the Gospels were written.
Did Paul ever claim that Jesus was himself divine or does he make a distiction between God and Jesus?
Cor 8:5-6 "Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. "(NRSV)
1 Timothy 2:5 " 5For there is one God: there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, (NRSV)
Just to answer a possible misconception--we do believe Jesus is God---but there is still only one God. He is the 2nd person of the Trinity. All 3 persons of the Trinity are fully God--and are of the same essence. There are not multiple Gods.
1 Tim. 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was
manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among
the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
Philip. 2:6 [Jesus] though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God
a thing to be grasped,
Col. 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were
created through him and for him.
... and of course, Jesus Himself had a few things to say (or infer, if you like) about the matter:
John 14:9 - Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 15:24 - If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father.
John 4:25-26 - 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
Matt 18:18-20 - 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
John 14:6 - 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
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nothing more to be added.
