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Old 05-16-2013, 09:25 AM
 
Location: among the chaos
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I would like to first start this thread with a little personal background...I am a practicing Catholic. There, nuff said.

I would like to get some feedback on others' views about Saints. My reason for asking is that my oldest daughter attends a Wednesday night youth program at a non-denominational church. She had a conversation with a friend who is a member of the church that went something like this: (note: my daughter is having a conversation with the other girl about inviting a friend to come to the Wednesday youth program) Other girl: "Oh, she won't come. She's Catholic." My daughter: "I'm Catholic." Other girl: "Yeah, but she believes in Saints." My daughter said that she did not take the conversation any further because she just thought her comment was "stupid". Also note that these are 12 y/o girls.

My question/concern/query: What are your thoughts/beliefs on 'Saints'? As a Catholic, we are taught to respect/honor/venerate the Saints. We ask them to 'pray for us', which I know is a huge bone of contention between Catholics and other Christians and a huge misunderstanding (but lets try not to turn this thread into just a conversation about that one point).

I want to point out that I am trying to gain understanding as to why this young lady may have said this to my daughter and not start a Catholic bashing thread.

Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.

<>< weather...
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:36 AM
 
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Hi there,
Just one question:
Why do you ask saints to pray for you?
I don't understand.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:50 AM
 
19,943 posts, read 15,726,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
I would like to first start this thread with a little personal background...I am a practicing Catholic. There, nuff said.

I would like to get some feedback on others' views about Saints. My reason for asking is that my oldest daughter attends a Wednesday night youth program at a non-denominational church. She had a conversation with a friend who is a member of the church that went something like this: (note: my daughter is having a conversation with the other girl about inviting a friend to come to the Wednesday youth program) Other girl: "Oh, she won't come. She's Catholic." My daughter: "I'm Catholic." Other girl: "Yeah, but she believes in Saints." My daughter said that she did not take the conversation any further because she just thought her comment was "stupid". Also note that these are 12 y/o girls.

My question/concern/query: What are your thoughts/beliefs on 'Saints'? As a Catholic, we are taught to respect/honor/venerate the Saints. We ask them to 'pray for us', which I know is a huge bone of contention between Catholics and other Christians and a huge misunderstanding (but lets try not to turn this thread into just a conversation about that one point).

I want to point out that I am trying to gain understanding as to why this young lady may have said this to my daughter and not start a Catholic bashing thread.

Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.

<>< weather...
I grew up catholic. I realize there is a difference in your mind between "veneration" and "worship", but I don't see it. I'm sorry--I just don't. I've heard priests tell me to "pray to the saints". I don't see any reason to do so. There just isn't a Biblical precedent for praying to the dead. Jesus said we can come to him--we don't have to ask his mother to twist his arm or any other saint.

Also, every thing you want to do in life has a "patron saint". Wanna sell your house? Bury a statue of Joseph upside down in your yard. He'll make it happen. Lose something? Pray to....I think St. Christopher? I just don't see it as being something Biblical.

Having said that, how do you know that any saint in particular is in heaven?
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Why do you ask saints to pray for you?
We ask saints to pray for us in the same manner that you may ask a friend or relative to pray for you.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
We ask saints to pray for us in the same manner that you may ask a friend or relative to pray for you.
Oh, I see. Thanks for answering.
peace,
sparrow
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
We ask saints to pray for us in the same manner that you may ask a friend or relative to pray for you.
Except that if you ask me to pray for you I'll say "Yes, I will". And you may hear me do so. Or you at least hear my response to know that I heard you.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:13 AM
 
Location: among the chaos
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First, let me attempt to address this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
I grew up catholic. I realize there is a difference in your mind between "veneration" and "worship", but I don't see it. I'm sorry--I just don't. I've heard priests tell me to "pray to the saints". I don't see any reason to do so. There just isn't a Biblical precedent for praying to the dead. Jesus said we can come to him--we don't have to ask his mother to twist his arm or any other saint.

Also, every thing you want to do in life has a "patron saint". Wanna sell your house? Bury a statue of Joseph upside down in your yard. He'll make it happen. Lose something? Pray to....I think St. Christopher? I just don't see it as being something Biblical.

"To pray," as a verb, has two very distinct meanings:

1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

It is only in this first sense that Catholics "pray" to saints. "To pray" is simply to ask, and it is a common English word as these examples will show: "Comes now Petitioner and, having filed his Motion in Limine, prays this Honorable Court to grant..." or "I pray thee, sir, might I borrow your book?". In the first instance, the Petitioner is not worshipping the Court. In the second, the potential book-borrower is not worshipping the book owner. And if I ever ask you, "Where have you been, pray tell?" I am not worshipping you, trust me!


(The above was taken from Saints)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Having said that, how do you know that any saint in particular is in heaven?
I would have to answer your above question with "faith".
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:20 AM
 
Location: among the chaos
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Vizio, may I try to take this back to my OP? Why might this young lady think that because a Catholic believes in saints, they would not wish to attend a worship service at another person's church? Do you, Vizio, believe that there are Saints residing in Heaven, whether you speak to them or not?

I did a Bible Gateway search of the word saint and found that there were 95 references to Saints. At least in the KJV.

I am really not looking to start an argument. I am looking for understanding.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:40 AM
 
19,943 posts, read 15,726,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weatherologist View Post
Vizio, may I try to take this back to my OP? Why might this young lady think that because a Catholic believes in saints, they would not wish to attend a worship service at another person's church?
My guess would be because most Evangelical or Protestant churches tend to emphasize going to Jesus directly--not the saints. It's honestly probably just a case of "we know our church is a lot different than what you're used to" mentality.
Quote:
Do you, Vizio, believe that there are Saints residing in Heaven, whether you speak to them or not?
The Bible refers to any Christian as a "saint". Those that have died are now in Heaven. No, I don't believe we should speak to them.
Quote:
I did a Bible Gateway search of the word saint and found that there were 95 references to Saints. At least in the KJV.

I am really not looking to start an argument. I am looking for understanding.
No problem--no argument intended. My concern is....how do you know a particular saint is in Heaven, or that he/she can hear you? My understanding is that a saint is canonized when there are documented miracles attributed to someone praying to him/her. That would logically mean that someone is praying to them before they are canonized, right? How does anyone know that such a person is in heaven before the church tells them?
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:10 AM
 
Location: among the chaos
2,136 posts, read 4,613,738 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
My guess would be because most Evangelical or Protestant churches tend to emphasize going to Jesus directly--not the saints. It's honestly probably just a case of "we know our church is a lot different than what you're used to" mentality.

The Bible refers to any Christian as a "saint". Those that have died are now in Heaven. No, I don't believe we should speak to them.


No problem--no argument intended. My concern is....how do you know a particular saint is in Heaven, or that he/she can hear you? My understanding is that a saint is canonized when there are documented miracles attributed to someone praying to him/her. That would logically mean that someone is praying to them before they are canonized, right? How does anyone know that such a person is in heaven before the church tells them?
Vizio, I found this: THE CANONIZATION OF SAINTS, which may help to answer your last few questions.

I must say, when conversations can remain civil, I truly enjoy the CD forum. Thank you for your input.
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