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So, am I the only creationist here who actually expects to have evidence for this view? I've been to my father's Bible study group, and those there are not really interested in going into the deeper things of science. Of course they are older than me, and I'm the only young mind there. That is I'm the only one who's open and interested in the deeper things of our faith. If my questions get too deep, they ultimately just say to take things on faith. Yet they don't understand. It's because of my faith, I'm confident evidence will come about concerning the history of the Bible. Yet it seems I'm the only one who thinks like this. Not only the Bible study group, but pretty much everywhere I go. No one thinks like I do and I got to tell you, it's downright lonely.
If the Bible is true concerning our history, then we should expect evidence to show it. Evidence is the one thing that would seperate us from every religion in the world. Yet I have better conversations with atheists on this subject. Even though they see my beliefs as crazy, at least they understand where I'm coming from concerning my reasons of expecting evidence for my case, or having a desire for evidence. (By evidence, I'm talking scientific experiments and research going into it, and seeing if it holds up to scrutiny. That these experiments can be repeated by other scientists, and shown to be true) I just can't find any Christian who understands me. Not that I'm being selfish or full of myself either. The things I ask about should be expected, yet I'm the only one it seems who cares.
The most well known creationists out there (Those at Answers in Genesis, Creation Magazine Live, and so on), don't have anything to show for what they are saying. All they do is try to poke holes into things like Common Descent Evolution and the Big Bang Theory. Where is the evidence for your side people? It's kind of like hating on those who are succesful, saying they aren't really who they say they are, and yet your the biggest hypocrite of them all! The best they can offer is pretty much blind speculation. For instance, the reason why stars are so far away and we can see it's light, is because of a special time dilation effect. That the earth is sitting in something called a gravity well and so on, and so on, and so on. Okay, the earth is sitting in a gravity well, where are the experiments and study helping to prove this blind speculation? They stop at the blind speculation, and say "See, creation makes sense". Am I the only creationist who wants actual evidence and study, who expects it?
If there are creationists here who thinks like me, let's have a good discussion in this topic. Let's talk about some possible studies that can be had to test for creationism. Let's not ignore the fact there is much observable evidence that points toward common descent evolution, and why that is. Let's just get as deep as we can because I have a lot of things to say which most Christians and creationists (not every Christian is a literal creationist) just don't understand, and don't want to understand.
I can appreciate your struggle here, really I do
But the bottom line is we are not required to figure out this "creation vs. evolution" question, or believe in the Creationist point of view in order to be saved.
God is in search of a faithful heart, not a degree in science. Jesus said "become as children." (Mat 18:3)
And the reality is, most children don't know how old the earth is and don't care either.
But the bottom line is we are not required to figure out this "creation vs. evolution" question, or believe in the Creationist point of view in order to be saved.
God is in search of a faithful heart, not a degree in science. Jesus said "become as children." (Mat 18:3)
And the reality is, most children don't know how old the earth is and don't care either.
However I think it's a shame more Christians aren't interested in these things. To me it's the same thing with Christians not caring about miracles being done to show God is truly with us. Don't you know if all we have are words, we are no better than any other religion out there? People shouldn't come to believe on Christ, with blind faith. How can we criticize others who follow different religions, for the same blind faith? I'm a Christian, but I don't want to be a dishonest Christian. If God is true, and the things He said that happened in the past actually happened (Not just creationism, but also the things concerning Moses and the Invasion of the Israelites), we should be able to back those things up.
It can be poetic as well, but in order to say God says anything relevant with our lives, it must be literal. Christianity is based on Genesis being literal history overall. You can't understand Jesus' mission, unless it is literal. The NT basically tells us that God is going to redo the whole creation at the very end of Jesus' thousand year reign, that is there will be a new heavens (what we know as the universe) and new earth. He's basically going to purify everything with fire. (We don't know what this process is specifically concerning the fire) That is the ultimate teaching the NT gives us. Something is wrong with this creation, and something is wrong with us. The history given in Adam is the only explanation to what's going on. If that never happened, we have a very big problem for those who are Christian. Of course many Christians would deny this, but I've never heard another credible explanation other than the history of Adam.
Gosh, I have to disagree with you here, sorry.
Christianity IS NOT based on Genesis being a literal history - not by a long shot.
Some Christians have come to believe this, but certainly not all, and not even the majority.
This is because you cannot read the Bible like one big story!
The Bible is actually 72 books in one.
There are books of poetry, books of song, letters, allegories, historical sagas and more. And you have to pay attention to the literary genre of each in order to understand what God wants us to know.
The first 5 books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, are actually just the Hebrew Scriptures, the most treasured traditions of Judaism.
Its genre is "historical narrative", which means it tells a story based on true events, but is not a telling of textbook facts. In other words, the stories in Genesis are not literal history, but are a compilation of symbolic basic truths God wanted to impart to us.
Adam and Eve were not likely actual people, but were instead important figures in stories that contain key lessons about the relationships of humans and their Creator.
If you get bogged down in the need to have everything in the Bible be a literal fact you will miss the things in it God/Jesus/Holy Spirit want you to understand!
Wow are people so lost everywhere, free access to the Book of Life, how often are just indefferent. I dont know everything, i have taught myself most i know, but ill have a talk. Who wrote the Penta...herda? aka first 5 books of everything we know about early history best of the worlds knowledge, when thinking about the future generations was little concern when you had to find time to eat and survive the wilds and barbaric nature of early man? Moses, by what, Word of God, Chirst first revelation, because isnt Christ the Word of God, same now and forever, alpha omega. ok so there is no lies, only a failure for a human, a what.. human, to understand, and God gave what to humans, a spirit of Stupor, why? we were willfully ignorant, and life was a journey of the Heart, not the Mind, to find out God, the Father? why the heart, its the energy source of the body, every pump coming from self contained power. well to keep the book short the clearest evidence against arguing the falsety of the bible is in Wisdom, as in it takes wisdom to create the universe, for it was found before light, and more beautiful, and Wisdom with God Spoke in the begenning, the first words of the Word, who? Pre-human Christ. In the beginner was the Word, and where was is, with God. And he said...? whats the only tool to fight a void of Darkness? Light. right. Let there be light! I have no way of imagining all that went on the first day (not a 24 hr period come on that not Gods Day, its mans based on a turn of the Earth and the Sunrays illuming one side, technically if you were in space not on a ball, you would continuesly be in what? daylight, ok so for 4 billion yrs the God got to play with light, whatever God could do with light, that was the only day he touched it, he never had to go back with an eraser and add a little, it was Good, as all the days of God, ****, yall not even reading anymore. science cant even think of a better way today to create a universe and drive back darkness, sound cant do it, it only defeats silence, light doesnt defeat silence, it defeats darkeness... so is that Fact that first had to be light, and the chemical reaction of every light orientated, Suns, gases, molecular reconstruction or a periodic table of elements to create more and more basic building blocks of everything. a universe full of light. which goes into day 2. not just Monday. go on? im new hear, im i just blabbleblebelbelbeloynian on
Christianity IS NOT based on Genesis being a literal history - not by a long shot.
Some Christians have come to believe this, but certainly not all, and not even the majority.
This is because you cannot read the Bible like one big story!
The Bible is actually 72 books in one.
There are books of poetry, books of song, letters, allegories, historical sagas and more. And you have to pay attention to the literary genre of each in order to understand what God wants us to know.
The first 5 books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, are actually just the Hebrew Scriptures, the most treasured traditions of Judaism.
Its genre is "historical narrative", which means it tells a story based on true events, but is not a telling of textbook facts. In other words, the stories in Genesis are not literal history, but are a compilation of symbolic basic truths God wanted to impart to us.
Adam and Eve were not likely actual people, but were instead important figures in stories that contain key lessons about the relationships of humans and their Creator.
If you get bogged down in the need to have everything in the Bible be a literal fact you will miss the things in it God/Jesus/Holy Spirit want you to understand!
I also agree everything is not literal in the Bible. Yet if Genesis is not historically accurate in that Adam and Eve weren't humans and didn't literally exist, how do you explain Jesus' mission? Jesus came to save us. Save us from what exactly? Why does the NT make a big deal out of this thing called the flesh? (The flesh not meaning just our bodies, but a corrupt way of thinking) What's the real problem, that Jesus had to solve? These are real problems.
Also, I don't know if it was in your posts that mentions the difference in how the people understood, and how we think like the greeks, but the whole NT is pretty much written in greek. Some believe this version of Christianity, that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He came to save us, is pretty much greek in it's thinking.
So I think in order for the Hebrew understanding to be understood by Christians (I disagree they weren't worried about facts concerning where man came from and so on), we have to strip a lot of things we attribute to Jesus from Him. Basically what you will have is a failed Messiah figure in the end.
It's simple to know if one's interpretation is correct. If it agrees with God's Holy Word, true Science, and History, it's as close to theOne Truth as is Humanly possible. The fault is Not with God's Truth, but with man's ability to understand it, for His thoughts are far above man's thoughts.
That's why I also seek the agreement of every other discovered Truth, to measure against God's Holy Word. There is Only 1 Truth, and every other discovered Truth MUST agree with God's Truth or we have Not found the 1 Truth.
I also agree everything is not literal in the Bible. Yet if Genesis is not historically accurate in that Adam and Eve weren't humans and didn't literally exist, how do you explain Jesus' mission? Jesus came to save us. Save us from what exactly? Why does the NT make a big deal out of this thing called the flesh? (The flesh not meaning just our bodies, but a corrupt way of thinking) What's the real problem, that Jesus had to solve? These are real problems.
Suppose for a moment that we think of the story of Adam and Eve as an illustration of "coming of age?" When we are born, we are not aware of the conflict between our immediate wants and what it takes to get along in a society. For a baby it is all about "feed me! change me! hold me!" and we gratify those wants, gradually introducing the idea that it is NOT all about them until they reach the realization that they have to either scale back their demands or they get disapproval in varying forms. Two natures: our immediate wants and the joy of a loving community. "Corrupt way of thinking?" No, natural to have desires, but also natural to want to have all that community offers. Problem. Answer: the Way.
Suppose for a moment that we think of the story of Adam and Eve as an illustration of "coming of age?" When we are born, we are not aware of the conflict between our immediate wants and what it takes to get along in a society. For a baby it is all about "feed me! change me! hold me!" and we gratify those wants, gradually introducing the idea that it is NOT all about them until they reach the realization that they have to either scale back their demands or they get disapproval in varying forms. Two natures: our immediate wants and the joy of a loving community. "Corrupt way of thinking?" No, natural to have desires, but also natural to want to have all that community offers. Problem. Answer: the Way.
See how it works?
I don't follow, it doesn't answer why Jesus had to come. The Bible tells us that all have sinned, and Paul points out that because of Adam's disobedience, we were all made sinners. If God made us this way by the process of common descent evolution, why see us as sinners? To sin means to miss the mark. Being a sinner means we are off the mark. What's the mark here? The mark is how God originally created us. Yet there has been a change, and now we are not how God originally created us. So Jesus came to redeem us. It's easy to understand, and this view comes from the literal understanding Adam and Eve.
You remove the literal understanding, Jesus redeeming us makes no sense whatsoever. I don't follow your illustration. If Jesus just wanted to teach us something about not being selfish or what have you, that doesn't explain why He needed to go to the cross. Remember the final Passover He spent with His disciples, how His blood was the sign of the new covenant, and His body being broken for our healing. This wasn't just some inspirational message to the people in how they should grow up and come of age. He came to redeem us from sin and death.
If you view everything as literal, you probably shouldn't be reading the Bible.
There are too many things that are meant to be taken as a metaphor, or they not only contradict themselves, but lose their meaning. Okay, so Jesus offered bread and wine to the disciples. So what? But if it's tied in to the temptation of turning stones to bread, and also to the feeding of five thousand, it makes a larger message. So he healed blind people, so what? But there was a sandwich story of Jesus trying to teach his disciples between healing two blind men (one who had no name and didn't grasp what he was seeing and so hallucinated, and one who had a name and saw properly).
It does make sense once you remove literal meaning. But you have to relearn it, looking at it from other angles, until you find something that works. Literal interpretation means other people think for you, and makes you easy prey for someone to contradict you, because the text isn't really yours.
Also, don't go to Bible study anymore. A bunch of old men telling you what to think, who can't really answer your questions. You need to answer your own questions, by looking at the text as you would one big metaphor, nobody can do this for you.
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