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Though Jesus was God he took the form of a mere human person and came into this world (Philippians 2:7) to proclaim good news to the poor, liberty to the captives, recovery of sight to the blind and to set at free those who are oppressed (Luke 4:18). The world however did not recognize him (John 1:10). He was therefore wounded for our transgressions, was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth (Isaiah 53: 5 &7). Furthermore, during his suffering and death he forgave his persecutors (Luke 23:34); and was concerned about the suffering they would bring upon themselves by their sins rather than his own suffering (Luke 23:28). Through his chastisement he healed us and set us free of sin; so that we too can love one another as he has loved us (John 13:34-35), quietly bear each other’s burdens, forgive without any limit (Matt. 18:22) and bind each other’s wounds. Christianity therefore is not about our rights, our feelings or our life. It is about sacrifice, undying fidelity, humility, obedience and forgiveness.
Alright it's game time,
Let's do this Scripture thing.
"God is not a man, that he should lie, or the son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?" - Numbers 23:19
Jesus is also telling a lie in John 7:8-10. Though it should be noted that I do not accept the Gospel of John as a part of my Biblical cannon.
Atonement is not achieved by sacrifice, but by commitment to God. We do not need a blood sacrifice, but rather we should show mercy, we do not need to give offerings to God, but rather we should acknowledge God. We must be forgiving of others and willing to repent and change for the better, only then are we saved from sin. (Hosea 6:6, Isaiah 1:11-18, Proverbs 16:6, Micah 6: 7-8, Proverbs 21:3, and Hosea 14:2-3)
Jesus is the son of God, not God, Jesus can only do miracles because his Father allows him because he was given authorities and God could take those authorities away because any thing the Lord gives can be taken away. (Matthew 28:18, Job 1:21.)
Jesus is not God because he is not all knowing and only his Father is all knowing nor is he Gods equal but rather he is beneath God and is Gods servant whose final goal will be to destroy death. (Mark 13:32, 1st Corinthians 15:24-28)
We are to bear our own sins and atone for them ourselves, we must put one foot in front of the other one we do not need a new love or a new life, we just need to pick ourselves up when we fail and keep trying. - (Jeremiah 31:30, Matthew 16:24, Ezekiel 18:21-23, Joel 2:12, Luke 13:3, Ecclesiastes 3:15 )
There you have it, we are responsible for our own sin, we must Repent and trust in the Lord.
Alright it's game time,
Let's do this Scripture thing.
Jesus is the son of God, not God, Jesus can only do miracles because his Father allows him because he was given authorities and God could take those authorities away because any thing the Lord gives can be taken away. (Matthew 28:18, Job 1:21.)
Jesus is not God because he is not all knowing and only his Father is all knowing nor is he Gods equal but rather he is beneath God and is Gods servant whose final goal will be to destroy death. (Mark 13:32, 1st Corinthians 15:24-28)
Not sure why you think this issue is a game but Jesus IS God incarnate. John 1:14 affirms this, as does Col 1:19 and 2:9 to name a few. Not knowing or understanding the hypostatic union would be where you fall short in knowing exactly WHO Jesus is. I would suggest you do a word study on the Greek word hypostasis as found in Heb 1:3.
I don't agree with Azrael17's view of Jesus as separate from God. I do believe that Jesus was both man and God. However---
The Greek canonical gospels has Jesus referring to Himself as the "Son of Man" 81 times while He NEVER refers to Himself as the Son of God. Only the epistles refer to Jesus as the "Son of God." But at least one well respected scholar of scriptures believe that the way the term is used in the NT is unique compared to how it is used in the OT.
Vermes, who just passed away last month, was a British scholar descended from Hungarian Jews who died in the Holocaust. Vermes became a Catholic priest--so to say his historical background is quite diverse would be an understatement.
So, although, I have personal belief in the dichotomy of God being both Jesus and Man, arising from my own personal experience with the Almighty, there is certainly intellectual reason for some to hold with Azrael17's view.
Quote:
The interpretation of the use of "the Son of man" in the New Testament has remained challenging and after 150 years of debate no consensus on the issue has emerged among scholars.[6][7]
same source
Last edited by Wardendresden; 06-04-2013 at 10:34 AM..
Reason: formatting
Ironic and beyond or sense of physics. That God who is all powerful - made himself flesh. In that power - His power is beyond comprehension. He is so powerful he can make himself powerless. It is as if there is another kind of power that is power and not power...As Christ who was devine and also human...He rendered himself powerless near the end. Imagine that -God allowing himself to be tormented by human beings in order to teach them the lesson...That earthly power is not power at all..that real power may just be powerless. Take Ghandi for instance...he ousted the the British Empire out of India through pacifism..through powerlessness pitted against earthly imperial power...it's fascinating.
No, not really. No human being knows whether or not there is a god or gods, or a creator or creators. No one. And, as there is no evidence for the existence of such beings, I do not default to the belief in them.
However, I acknowledge some such being or beings may very well exist in some form or fashion, in some corner of the cosmos or some dimension, or existant somehow through all living matter and energy.
It is simply more than we know. The universe is vast and there is still very little we really know about it, or "reality" for that matter.
Also, I do completely understand why a person would come to believe in deities and a creator or creators.
The wonders of the universe, the diversity of life, the mysteries of existence, the balance of things...it makes sense that many people would view these aspects of reality and conclude there must be some imaginative, creative or guiding force behind it all.
And that may be the case.
But we don't know.
What I DO believe rather firmly is that we cannot point to any specific god or pantheon of gods and say "This god (or gods) is real and all others are false." That's nonsense. Divisive, exlcusivist nonsense that is completely baseless.
It may well be that, if there is some kind of overarching, ultimate "godhead" or what have you, that this has been revealed to different cultures at different times in different parts of the globe throughout our history, and that every god (from Yahweh to Zeus to Vishnu to Astarte and all the thousands of others imagined by humans) is a reflection of some greater reality or deity.
We don't know.
But we CAN know that many of the holy texts of the world--while all containing some wisdom, beauty and philosophical truth--are largely mythological, including the Judeo-Christian ones.
Mythology, I want to state, is not comprised of lies. Rather, myths are a means of conveying deep truths, often symbolically.
Therefore, I believe we can all garner value from the scriptures of any and all religions. The fact that scripture is largely mythological doesn't in any way diminish the worth of any scripture.
But there is no justification in any way for anyone from any religion to say "Mine is right and yours is wrong. My god(s) is real and yours are false."
If you do not know God, why you make statements, you cannot proof either. Just say you do not know that would be humble. Saul of Tarsus had an encounter with Jesus Christ. I also had an encounter in the night, the room was dark and when I prayed, the whole room was filled with a light, that was brighter than the sun and inside of me everything was burning, so that I thought, I am dying. When I said that I do not want to die, as quick as the light came it disappeared. I have experienced heaven and hell, both are real and there are enough witnesses for that truth. Jesus Christ is the truth and the way and the life (everlasting), without Him no one comes to God, no Religion can provide what He has done for us. He is our Savior and Redeemer and the coming King, blessed is he that trusts and believes in Him.
Not sure why you think this issue is a game but Jesus IS God incarnate. John 1:14 affirms this, as does Col 1:19 and 2:9 to name a few. Not knowing or understanding the hypostatic union would be where you fall short in knowing exactly WHO Jesus is. I would suggest you do a word study on the Greek word hypostasis as found in Heb 1:3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zur
You will loose the game, because you do not understand the gospel nor the scriptures, why Jesus died for us and how He saved us. From the beginning to the end the bible teaches us that blood is necessary for the atonement of sin. Read Kain and Abel. Read the covenant God made with Abraham. The death angel passed only on the houses that had the blood on the door post. The NT is made by the blood of the lamb, Jesus is the High Priest in the heavenly temple, where He went with His own blood to redeem us. Without blood there is no forgiveness of sin and Jesus is the only one that made this perfect sacrifice, He was without sin, He was not lying, you do not understand what He was saying, He wanted not to go with His brothers to the feast, He had His reasons.
On the other hand you are right, if a pastor commits adultery for 4 years and says that was the will of God, he does not know the scriptures either and is deceived, he is responsible for his sins. If someone does evil and thinks he goes still to heaven his damnation is just (Rom 3:8).
I understand that the scriptures make those assertions but they are a false man made doctrine and nothing else. In my Theology Scriptures are prone to error and only God is perfect, I therefor put my faith in God and not in any man made construct. I do believe Jesus was his son, and the greatest prophet and the Messiah, but I will never worship him because it would be breaking a commandment to do so.
I do not accept the trinity because it's polytheism.
I have once had one person try to justify the trinity by comparing God to Water, with how water changes form, from Ice, to Water, to Vapor. However the Imperfect scripture says that God does not change. "I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." - Malachi 3:6
I do not accept blood sacrifice because the ability to forgive sin exists with out it, and God calls for mercy not sacrifice. Furthermore the Old Testament is very prominent in it's hatred of human sacrifice.
I will not bend my knee to any one but the one you know as "The Father."
I ask that you at least look over the verses I referenced in my previous post, even if you don't agree with my point of view. But don't take the Bibles word for each person must experience the Lord for them-self. I experience my God in every thing, and am blessed and thankful even in times of adversity and turmoil. Seek to Experience the Lord and you will find God.
Christianity is what GOD wrought in christ when he raised him from the dead. To us born again ones its christ in you the hope of glory..christian comes from the words christ and in,christin therefore christian.
I understand that the scriptures make those assertions but they are a false man made doctrine and nothing else. In my Theology Scriptures are prone to error and only God is perfect, I therefor put my faith in God and not in any man made construct. I do believe Jesus was his son, and the greatest prophet and the Messiah, but I will never worship him because it would be breaking a commandment to do so.
I do not accept the trinity because it's polytheism.
I have once had one person try to justify the trinity by comparing God to Water, with how water changes form, from Ice, to Water, to Vapor. However the Imperfect scripture says that God does not change. "I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." - Malachi 3:6
I do not accept blood sacrifice because the ability to forgive sin exists with out it, and God calls for mercy not sacrifice. Furthermore the Old Testament is very prominent in it's hatred of human sacrifice.
I will not bend my knee to any one but the one you know as "The Father."
I ask that you at least look over the verses I referenced in my previous post, even if you don't agree with my point of view. But don't take the Bibles word for each person must experience the Lord for them-self. I experience my God in every thing, and am blessed and thankful even in times of adversity and turmoil. Seek to Experience the Lord and you will find God.
Scriptures do NOT make assertions, they state truth. Seeing as you think your have your OWN theology,
there is nothing we can discuss as you do not accept God's Word which is our arbitrator as Christians, in ALL things. Your thoughts and opinions outside the confines of scripture are yours alone, and those that go against scripture are WRONG.
WHY would I look at verses from a Bible you do not accept as inerrant? Apparently you feel you can pick and choose scriptures based on your personal understanding. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.
Apparently you feel you can pick and choose scriptures based on your personal understanding.
Sorry but it doesn't work that way.
Cherry picking is the norm for most Christians, is it not?
In other words, a few to support ones view on the trinity.
A few other verses to incorrectly, concoct hell and its chief resident.
The list is endless; forever and ever.
When the bible becomes our only source; wisdom falls short.
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Defending the undefendible
