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Old 06-06-2013, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
Reputation: 64

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Hey guys. I'm wondering if anyone here has ever covered the issue of Jesus not being actually of the seed of David? Don't the scriptures specifically say that the Messiah will come from the genetic lineage of David?


If we accept that Mary had to be a "virgin" and not merely a "young woman" as some interpretations suggest the prophecy really meant...it still means that Mary would have to come from the "seed of David" herself, which she wasn't.



I know that if you accept "Christ is God" as a given, it is easy to get around all this. You can say 'the seed of God became the seed of David" or something like that.

But if we are more strict in analysis, and say that the prophecies of the Most High and True God must be fulfilled perfectly, what happens? In other words, if you make it a requirement that all prophecies must be correctly fulfilled for him even to be considered the Messiah, or even considered to be God, it is quite different. Any opinions on this?


BTW..is it also true that when Jesus was referred to by people as "son of David" that he never commented?
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
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This is all I have found so far that even comes close to helping:

Even John the Baptist’s father Zechariah prophesied that Jesus was the fulfillment, not of the genetic seed of David, but rather, that God had, “raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he said through his holy prophets of long ago.”Jesus is a descendent of Judah by fulfilling the requirements of man in the flesh, because Joseph’s role as his father is what the Jews used for the criteria, or standard lineage. Joseph and Mary registered for the Roman census for tax purposes together just before the birth of Jesus. But his greater fulfillment as David’s descendent is through the indestructible power of a spiritual birth at the resurrection.

(But "in the house of" is still not the same as SEED)
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:21 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
Hey guys. I'm wondering if anyone here has ever covered the issue of Jesus not being actually of the seed of David? Don't the scriptures specifically say that the Messiah will come from the genetic lineage of David?


If we accept that Mary had to be a "virgin" and not merely a "young woman" as some interpretations suggest the prophecy really meant...it still means that Mary would have to come from the "seed of David" herself, which she wasn't.



I know that if you accept "Christ is God" as a given, it is easy to get around all this. You can say 'the seed of God became the seed of David" or something like that.

But if we are more strict in analysis, and say that the prophecies of the Most High and True God must be fulfilled perfectly, what happens? In other words, if you make it a requirement that all prophecies must be correctly fulfilled for him even to be considered the Messiah, or even considered to be God, it is quite different. Any opinions on this?


BTW..is it also true that when Jesus was referred to by people as "son of David" that he never commented?
Excerpt:

According to the Jerusalem Talmud (Chag. 77,4), Heli was actually Mary’s father making him Joseph’s father-in-law. The reason the two genealogies are different is that Joseph was descended from Solomon while Mary was a descendant of Solomon’s older brother Nathan.
Are Joseph’s And Mary’s Lineage Incorrect? | GraceThruFaith


The fact that Luke's gospel account gives Mary's linage is indirectly confirmed by the Jewish Talmud which is no friend to Christianity. Theologian and Hebrew Scholar John Lightfoot (1602-1675) cites in his book 'Horae Hebraicae Et Talmudicae' Talmudic writers concerning Mary and that she was the daughter of Heli (Eli). What they say about her expresses their animosity toward Christianity. He writes...
There is a discourse of a certain person who in his sleep saw the punishment of the damned. Amongst the rest which I would render thus, but shall willingly stand corrected if under a mistake; He saw Mary the daughter of Heli amongst the shades. R. Lazar Ben Josah saith, that she hung by the glandules of her breasts. R. Josah Bar Haninah saith, that the great bar of hell's gate hung at her ear.

If this be the true rendering of the words, which I have reason to believe it is, then thus far, at least, it agrees with our evangelist, that Mary was the daughter of Heli: and questionless all the rest is added in reproach of the blessed Virgin, the mother of our Lord: whom they often vilify elsewhere under the name of Sardah. [bolded mine]
Luke 3:1 - John Lightfoot's Commentary on the Gospels - Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Horae Hebraicae Et Talmudicae can be read online at Horae Hebraicae et Talmudicae : Hebrew and Talmudical exercitations upon the Gospels, the Acts, some chapters of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, and the First Epistle to the Corinthians I linked directly to the page where Lightfoot cites the Talmudic reference to Mary.

Jesus is descended from David through Mary.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
Reputation: 64
Thanks Mike!

What's upsetting, is that so few people seem to know about this. When you do a search for "Mary was a descendant of Solomon's" (with quotes) on Google, you get only 10 results, and most of them seem to be a repeat of the same quote.

I'm going to look at the links you've provided though and see what I can find!
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
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Also, Mike, can you point me to the Scripture in Luke (or elsewhere) that tells of Mary's lineage, or of how it can be pieced together? I thought I had some leads on it, but have been yet to find it!
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
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I found this excerpt from the info you copied from "Mary's Geneology and the Talmud"

"It is INDIRECTLY CONFIRMED [emphasis mine] by Jewish tradition. Lightfoot cites from the Talmudic writers concerning the pains of hell, the statement that Mary the daughter of Heli [sic] was seen in the infernal regions, suffering horrid tortures. This statement illustrates, not only the bitter animosity of the Jews toward the Christian religion, but also the fact that, according to received Jewish tradition, Mary was the daughter of Heli; [sic] hence, that it is her genealogy which we find in Luke." (John Haley, Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, page 326.)

BUT IT ALL HINGES ON THIS (Based on information in
The Talmud of the Land of Israel)

Here, we discover that Professor Rabbi Neusner, the modern translator of this passage, has left the ALL important Hebrew word "LYBSLYM" untranslated. So the question still looms: does "LYBSLYM" translate to Heli/Eli?

If it DOES translate to Heli/Eli then it's all good. But still...I'd like to see it in The Bible...because really it belongs there. The work referenced at the top also comes over 1600 years later. Weird how no one was able to even come close to establishing it before then!

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Old 06-06-2013, 11:47 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
I found this excerpt from the info you copied from "Mary's Geneology and the Talmud"

"It is INDIRECTLY CONFIRMED [emphasis mine] by Jewish tradition. Lightfoot cites from the Talmudic writers concerning the pains of hell, the statement that Mary the daughter of Heli [sic] was seen in the infernal regions, suffering horrid tortures. This statement illustrates, not only the bitter animosity of the Jews toward the Christian religion, but also the fact that, according to received Jewish tradition, Mary was the daughter of Heli; [sic] hence, that it is her genealogy which we find in Luke." (John Haley, Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible, page 326.)

BUT IT ALL HINGES ON THIS (Based on information in
The Talmud of the Land of Israel)

Here, we discover that Professor Rabbi Neusner, the modern translator of this passage, has left the ALL important Hebrew word "LYBSLYM" untranslated. So the question still looms: does "LYBSLYM" translate to Heli/Eli?

If it DOES translate to Heli/Eli then it's all good. But still...I'd like to see it in The Bible...because really it belongs there. The work referenced at the top also comes over 1600 years later. Weird how no one was able to even come close to establishing it before then!

Yes. I stated that it was an indirect confirmation. Since it is in the Talmud, that makes it indirect and external evidence assuming that it is referring to Mary the mother of Jesus being the daughter of Heli. Lightfoot said he had reason to believe that was a correct rendering of the words but left open the possibility that he could be mistaken. And there are those of course who think that he was and that LYBSLYM should not be translated as Heli or Eli.

Aside from the Talmud issue, what it comes down to is this. The Bible says that Jesus is the son of David. The Messiah had to be physically descended from David because David was promised by God that he would have a son who would sit on the throne forever. The Bible does not directly say that Mary is descended from David. Luke's account of Jesus' geneology goes through Mary but likely because of the Jewish custom to not include women in the line of descent in geneologies she is not mentioned, but rather her husband who was Eli's son in law is instead mentioned. Since Jesus did not have a human father His blood descent from David had to be through Mary. And it's really just that simple. You either believe the Bible or you don't. I believe the Bible.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
Reputation: 64
Yes, Mike, I totally agree!
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 734,287 times
Reputation: 64
Do you think the Jews at the time (who rejected Jesus) might not have rejected him if they believed Mary was descended from David? I've seen that claim made...that this was one of the reasons he was rejected as the Messiah.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:15 AM
 
Location: US
32,529 posts, read 21,828,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses View Post
Do you think the Jews at the time (who rejected Jesus) might not have rejected him if they believed Mary was descended from David? I've seen that claim made...that this was one of the reasons he was rejected as the Messiah.
That makes no sense...If they rejected Him due to the fact that they did not believe Mary was descended from David and they didn't believe that He was born of God, then they must have believed He was Joseph's biological son and therefore that would have made Him a descendant of David...
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