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And for those who feel that the "spirit automatically transforms" once you accept Christ...it's the same question. If that were true..why would Jesus have to make that statement?
As I said on another thread, I accepted Christ when I was 5 years old. But that didn't stop me from developing a serious drinking problem in my adulthood for a number of years. Through prayer and faith (and that means faith in God's ability to help me transcend...not faith that it's "all paid for"),,,I was able to lick it completely. I would rather be dead than have another drink. So to those who think that we will always fail and always fall short if we rely at all "on our own efforts" I say that's a bunch of bull. I am stronger and more spiritual now than I've ever been....and I've GROWN.
Congrats on beating the lure of the bottle. But perhaps you aren't giving enough credit to your own efforts. They do say that the Lord helps those who help themselves. I'm not a big believer in God ALWAYS stepping in in a miraculous way to solve our problems, though I do believe that sometimes when we get in over our heads and He knows we're in real trouble He often will step in and save us without us uttering a word of prayer. That has happened to me on several occasions. On the other hand I was once sick unto death as they say and had the local church elders praying for me and nothing happened. No miraculous cure, no response from God. But a local doc with just the right medicine pulled me through at the last minute. Hand of God, or hand of an atheist smart physician? Maybe hand of an atheist smart physician acting through God.
God has blessed me with abundant financial wealth though I never tithed (I did once, a single act however many many years ago) How I was given the wealth is a miracle in and of itself. I never merited it nor could I have done it on my own. I'm as helpless as a kitten in the real world.
The point being God doesn't play by a set of worldly rules e.g. if you do xy you will get z results. I have no idea how these rules operate here on earth. There's no rhyme or reason that I can make out of them in my earthly mind. Just like I study ET vs UR vs Annihilation all day long and, along with the best of them, have yet to uncover the actual truth. I just know that those rules are there and they work.
Morale, for me at least: God is in control. He operates in a way that earthly rules, even some in the Bible, are totally ineffective against. Prayer works sometimes, sometimes not. Tithing your way to riches is totally bogus, despite what the prosperity preachers would have you believe. Often God will step in without the slightest peep from you and save you from calamity as you watch the next Christian circle the drain and then go down. But I don't believe He's necessarily being unkind or unloving to that Christian. As we're not familiar with the rules, we trust that whatever happens, even when a good Christian dies prematurely of a horrible disease, something good is coming from it. We have to believe that and believe in God's love and wisdom.
The Lord says unless a corn of wheat falls into the ground and dies it abides alone, but if it dies it brings forth much fruit. I don't believe the Lord was only talking about His death and resurrection, but the necessity for Us to die also walking in the newness of the resurrection life.
Once one receives Christ, we are to continually, day by day crucify the flesh its desires.. This includes our pride. I do believe correct doctrine produces correct living with the correct motive. No room for pride.
We are the barrier of Christ living in and through us producing fruit to His glory.
Sorry, too soon for another "rep" Then comes the question of what "correct doctrine" is and when does it get too detailed to be correct anymore? I'm thinking specifically of Trinity Doctrine and all the specific points addressed by the current Nicene Creed.
The blood of the son of man is the truth and His flesh is honesty that is why He says "my flesh is true food and my blood is honest drink". "Whoever belongs to God hears every word God speaks". Why then do you not hear?
"The righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their heavenly Father."
Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few people be saved?" He answered them,
"Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.
After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, 'Lord, open the door for us.' He will say to you in reply, 'I do not know where you are from.'
And you will say, 'We ate and drank in your company and you taught in our streets.'
Then he will say to you, 'I do not know where (you) are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!'
And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out.
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
And do you know what the will of the Father is? I'll give you a little time to find that out before I come back and tell you.
And by the way, when Jesus was asked that question the person asking it thought that only those who were following Jesus around would be saved. That is why he asked will only a few be saved. Much also like the man who asked Jesus how can a man be born again if he cannot enter into his mother's womb again.
And do you know what the will of the Father is? I'll give you a little time to find that out before I come back and tell you.
And by the way, when Jesus was asked that question the person asking it thought that only those who were following Jesus around would be saved. That is why he asked will only a few be saved. Much also like the man who asked Jesus how can a man be born again if he cannot enter into his mother's womb again.
I do the will of God every day.
Figure it out. If Jesus says the son of man came down from heaven to do Gods will not His own and that He was sent to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God then that defines it right there.
The righteous proclaim the word of God and the just proclaim Gods will.
You are trying to compare Jesus speaking to the "Lost sheep of the house of Israel" to what Paul was taught by Jesus to give to the Church in the dispensation of Grace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoWitnesses
Christ's advice to the tempted: V. 29. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. V. 30. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee. For it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell
Ok, that is what Jesus said.
What did Paul say in contrast..and how do we get "saved by grace" as the Gospel from statements like this that Jesus made? How is Paul's gospel the same as this?
Paul also cursed anyone who preached another Gospel.
But where is the "Gospel of Grace" in Jesus' own words. Not the words of John talking about Jesus either...but from Jesus Christ (presumably God) himself?
If it's true that the "cross paid it all" then why would Jesus say something like this...especially if he knew he was going to be crucified and ressurrected (and that it would be "paid in full")?
Some people like to say that Jesus gave advice on how to "live in this world" but that is clearly not the case here. Jesus is making a point, that to those who feel enslaved to sin, you should make a conscious effort, and that even if you had to muster the courage to cut off your pee-pee (like if you couldn't keep it in your pants)..that it would be better to do that, than to end up in Gehenna. So I'm wondering...where is the "Gospel of Grace" in anything Jesus taught? It is the opinion of very many that Jesus never mentioned being saved by grace as a concept.
You can't just say "Jesus was making a point" about how important salvation is. He is giving specific instructions here, to those who are struggling with sin.
Figure it out. If Jesus says the son of man came down from heaven to do Gods will not His own and that He was sent to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God then that defines it right there.
The righteous proclaim the word of God and the just proclaim Gods will.
Hebrews 10:9 "He then says, See, I have come to do Your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. "
If you say you do the will of God everyday, what you're saying is that you are Jesus, and everyday you die on a cross for the sins of the world. This is impossible. The will of God is that He takes away the first covenant, law, to establish the second covenant, grace. If you mean you spread the gospel then that is a fruit of right believing, but in context of the will of God it is the finished work of Christ.
Hebrews 10:9 "He then says, See, I have come to do Your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. "
If you say you do the will of God everyday, what you're saying is that you are Jesus, and everyday you die on a cross for the sins of the world. This is impossible. The will of God is that He takes away the first covenant, law, to establish the second covenant, grace. If you mean you spread the gospel then that is a fruit of right believing, but in context of the will of God it is the finished work of Christ.
No, Jesus did not come to die on the cross for the sins of the world. He never said that is why He came. That is a misunderstanding by those who follow Paul and do not do the will of God as Jesus said His followers would.
Christ says; "The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify the truth.
I came so my sheep would have life.
The words I spoke to you are spirit and life.
I must go and preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the surrounding cities because that is why I was sent."
As those verses show Jesus came to spread the word of God. He sent His followers as He was sent with the same words and mission. Read John 17 for further proof.
No, Jesus did not come to die on the cross for the sins of the world. He never said that is why He came. That is a misunderstanding by those who follow Paul and do not do the will of God as Jesus said His followers would.
Christ says; "The reason I was born and came into the world is to testify the truth.
I came so my sheep would have life.
The words I spoke to you are spirit and life.
I must go and preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the surrounding cities because that is why I was sent."
As those verses show Jesus came to spread the word of God. He sent His followers as He was sent with the same words and mission. Read John 17 for further proof.
This is heresy. How dare you say Jesus did not come to die on the cross for our sins. I don't know what gospel you are reading or how your understanding came to be of the holy scriptures but you have taken it completely out of context. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins. If you do not believe that, you believe another gospel that is NOT of God.
This is heresy. How dare you say Jesus did not come to die on the cross for our sins. I don't know what gospel you are reading or how your understanding came to be of the holy scriptures but you have taken it completely out of context. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins. If you do not believe that, you believe another gospel that is NOT of God.
This is heresy. How dare you say Jesus did not come to die on the cross for our sins. I don't know what gospel you are reading or how your understanding came to be of the holy scriptures but you have taken it completely out of context. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died on the cross for our sins. If you do not believe that, you believe another gospel that is NOT of God.
I just gave you verses that show what Jesus said and why He said He came and you say I am a heretic. You are calling Jesus a heretic not me, they are His words. He never said he came to die on the cross for the sins of all mankind. That is a misconception and a twisting of His words.
Christ says; "Whoever would serve me must follow me. Where I am that's where my servant will be. Whoever serves me, him the Father will honor."
"Worship God alone, Him alone shall you serve."
"The son of man comes to serve not be served."
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Sorry, too soon for another "rep" Then comes the question of what "correct doctrine" is and when does it get too detailed to be correct anymore? I'm thinking specifically of Trinity Doctrine and all the specific points addressed by the current Nicene Creed.
