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We are talking about giving false messages from God. Are you willing to use the standard of perfection when looking at your prophets' histories?
I'm willing to use the same standard in judging prophets across the board. You apparently aren't. You have a completely different set of standards depending on who the prophets are.
I'm willing to use the same standard in judging prophets across the board. You apparently aren't. You have a completely different set of standards depending on who the prophets are.
How so? As Ive said, they must be perfect in the messages they claim are from God. The Bible already declares OT prophets to be prophets.....I am not willing to argue with that.
Now....we have been over what Joseph Smith taught regarding us achieving Godhood. Was he or was he not correct in that teaching? Or are you unwilling to answer the question?
How so? As Ive said, they must be perfect in the messages they claim are from God. The Bible already declares OT prophets to be prophets.....I am not willing to argue with that.
So if "the Bible already declared OT prophets to be prophets," it doesn't matter to you whether their prophesies were false or not? If both Jonah and Ezekiel made prophesies that did not come to pass, they can be excused, I guess -- because they are described in the Bible as "prophets."
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Now....we have been over what Joseph Smith taught regarding us achieving Godhood. Was he or was he not correct in that teaching?
You'll have to be more specific than that.
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Or are you unwilling to answer the question?
I'll answer it once I get something concrete to go on. If what you believe Joseph Smith taught regarding us achieving godhood is found in the Standard Works, please just say so, and I'll be happy to comment. Otherwise, stop wasting my time, because I've already told you that we believe prophets are fallible human beings. Every word that comes out of their mouths is not to be taken as "God's word." Do you honestly think that everything every Old Testament prophet ever said is found in the scriptures? Good grief, man, you can't be that naive!
So if "the Bible already declared OT prophets to be prophets," it doesn't matter to you whether their prophesies were false or not? If both Jonah and Ezekiel made prophesies that did not come to pass, they can be excused, I guess -- because they are described in the Bible as "prophets."
You'll have to be more specific than that.
I'll answer it once I get something concrete to go on. If what you believe Joseph Smith taught regarding us achieving godhood is found in the Standard Works, please just say so, and I'll be happy to comment. Otherwise, stop wasting my time, because I've already told you that we believe prophets are fallible human beings. Every word that comes out of their mouths is not to be taken as "God's word." Do you honestly think that everything every Old Testament prophet ever said is found in the scriptures? Good grief, man, you can't be that naive!
First of all, Jonah and Ezekiel are endorsed by the Bible as prophets. I trust the Bible over your opinion of them.
Second of all, you completely dodged the words of Joseph Smith when I referred to them before. I want a definitive yes or no. Was Smith right when he said God used to be a man on another planet and is now exalted? And that we can do the same now? If not, you are calling him a false prophet. So which is it?
This is from "Restoring the Ancient Church" by Barry Bickmore. I'm not saying I agree with everything they had to say, but I think their insights are worth considering...
Justin Martyr held to the belief in the two-fold division of the world of spirits:
The souls of the pious remain in a better place, while those of the unjust and wicked are in a worse, waiting for the time of judgment. Thus some which have appeared worthy of God never die; but others are punished so long as God wills them to exist and to be punished.
Irenaeus was emphatic that even believers must be taken to the underworld:
For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event.
Tertulllian not only preached that everyone must serve a term in the underworld, but he also taught that the spirit world is under the earth, and the fact that the souls of the wicked are punished there proves that the soul is material. He taught that the punishments in spirit hell will have an end, as well:
By ourselves the lower regions (of Hades) are not supposed to be a bare cavity, nor some subterranean sewer of the world, but a vast deep space in the interior of the earth, and a concealed recess in its very bowels; inasmuch as we read that Christ in His death spent three days in the heart of the earth . . . . Now although Christ is God, yet, being also man, "He died according to the Scriptures," and "according to the same Scriptures was buried." With the same law of His being He fully complied, by remaining in Hades in the form and condition of a dead man; nor did He ascend into the heights of heaven before descending into the lower parts of the earth, that He might there make the patriarchs and prophets partakers of Himself. (This being the case), you must suppose Hades to be a subterranean region, and keep at arm's length those who are too proud to believe that the souls of the faithful deserve a place in the lower regions.
Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham's bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal.
All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no . . . . Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory? . . . What, then, is to take place in that interval? Shall we sleep? But souls do not sleep . . . . Or will you have it, that nothing is there done whither the whole human race is attracted, and whither all man's expectation is postponed for safe keeping? . . . Now really, would it not be the highest possible injustice, even in Hades, if all were to be still well with the guilty even there, and not well with the righteous even yet? . . . In short, inasmuch as we understand "the prison" pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret "the uttermost farthing" to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides.
Origen not only taught about the division in the spirit world, but called it both a place of learning and of punishment, and indicated that it was located on the earth. The inhabitants of Paradise will receive instruction, while the inmates of hell will be punished to purify them from their sins. And if their souls can be purified, this punishment must have an end...
Those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts--according as they shall be deemed worthy--some in the place which is called "hell," others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions.
I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place situated on the earth, which holy Scripture calls paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room or school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future...
We find a certain confirmation of what is said regarding the place of punishment, intended for the purification of such souls as are to be purified by torments, agreeably to the saying: "The Lord cometh like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold."
(The primary sources are: Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 5, in ANF 1:197; cf. Davies, The Early Christian Church, 100, Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:31, in ANF 1:560-561, Tertullian, On the Soul 55, in ANF 3:231, Tertullian, On the Soul 7, in ANF 3:187, Tertullian, On the Soul 58, in ANF 3:234-235, Origen, De Principiis 4:1:23, in ANF 4:372, and Origen, Against Celsus 6:25, in ANF 4:584.)
What if a Christian claims that he has been hearing specific messages from god? In other words, he is a prophet.
Among other things, the messages tell him that people should always dress in red and carry a cat with them. None of these messages contradict anything in the NT.
The man tells people about his messages from god and he develops a group of followers who abide by the rules he sets up.
Are this prophet and his followers still Christians?
Only IF what is being told is scriptural. I personally don't believe in following a person. God is the one to follow. If the prophet tells me that, I'll believe him. If not, he's just another cult.
Only IF what is being told is scriptural. I personally don't believe in following a person. God is the one to follow. If the prophet tells me that, I'll believe him. If not, he's just another cult.
A prophetsy of comfort for today for those who have "ears to hear" from the book God Calling:
"I stand between the years. The Light of My Presence is flung across the year to come; the radiance of the "Sun of Righteousness". MAL 4:2 "But unto you that fear My name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall." Backward, over the year, is My Shadow thrown, hiding trouble and sorrow and disappointment.
Dwell not on the past, only on the present. Only use the past as trees use My sunlight to absorb it, to make from it in after days the warming fire-rays. So store only the blessings from Me, the Light of the World. Encourage yourselves by the thought of these.
Bury every fear of the future, of poverty for those dear to you, of suffering, of loss. Bury all thought of unkindness and bitterness, all your dislikes, your resentments, your sense of failure, your disapointment in others and in yourselves, your gloom, your dispondency, and let us leave them all buried, and go forward to a new and risen life.
Remember that you must not see as the world sees. I hold the year in My Hands, in trust for you. But I shall guide you one day at a time.
Leave the rest with Me. You must not anticipate the gift by fears or thoughts of the days ahead.
And for each day I shall supply the wisdom and the strength"
Here is a detailed post with several links that deals with this issue very well.
Do you really think that the teachings about the gifts in 1 Corinthians is only an historical account for interest sake? No, they are written in the present tense to make us aware that gifts are needed to build up the body of Christ to it's full potential. The Church is not what it could be because many false teachers ignore or speak against the whole council of God. Idol words do lots of damage to the unlearned.
I once lived in a camper truck, dirt poor, and without a job. I went to a prayer meeting and I knew no one there and they did not know me. In the coarse of it a young woman said to the others that she had a vision of me needing food and money. The host of the meeting gave me food and hired me to sheetrock his addition to his house. Both my needs were meet because God still knows God how to give gifts. I could tell you of other things but you are like Thomas [no intended insult] who needs to see it for yourself. Perhaps you will.
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