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Vizio, talking strictly about myself, a Christian who follows the Catholic faith. Would you and your God be OK with the fact that I turned away from my faith and my God entirely because of something that you said to me?
I don't know what you believe in regards to Christ. If you believe that you are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, by grace alone, then you are a Christian. I'm not saying anything to tell you to go against that.
If instead you believe that you are saved at baptism and then must maintain your salvation through doing good things, then you are in the same boat as anyone else.
I appreciate the spirit of your post. In response to the question in bold, I can only say that perhaps there are times when it might not be such a bad thing to lose one's "faith" (one's beliefs about God) because sometimes those beliefs are more of a hindrance than a help. But I agree that the attitude of beating someone's spirit down in order to make them see things the same way you do doesn't exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (gentleness, kindness, patience...).
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Originally Posted by weatherologist
Thank you, Pleroo, for your direct answer, I have bolded it. At least the part that I would like to discuss further. I also want to point out that I am not trying to start a thread of bashing one faith or another. I am trying to gain an understanding.
I will use myself as an example. I am a Christian who practices my faith in the RCC. I am certain that there are those who believe that following the RCC makes me not a Christian, at least not their kind of Christian. Would it be best for me to lose my faith and turn away from the Church and ultimately God?
I would also appreciate it if Vizio would answer the 2nd part of my question with a statement of his belief, not a question directed at others.
Here is a easy to understand that bold part.....
Matthew 12:30 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
God never advocated that ...
Jesus never advocated that ....
The mind of Christ never advocated that ....
As for your question, do your own research:
Do you trust in your own works that they are done perfectly 100% of the time
God taught failure to do so makes you cursed Galatians 3:10
Is the Mass a re-crucifying of Jesus every time for the payment of sin?
God taught that Jesus "He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."Hebrews 7:27
Do you call anyone (priest's \ pope etc.) "father"
God taught: "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:9
Do you repetitively say the rosary
God taught: But when ye pray,use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Matthew 6:6-8
Does the RCC sell indulgences for the payment of any sin?
God taught: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.1 John 1:9
There are numerous false gods that don't exist that religions point to.
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The OT descriptions of God are anti-Christ . . . so why as a Christian do you credit them? Christ came to lift the veil of ignorance over the OT and reveal the TRUE NATURE of our God. You negate His revelation when you revert to our ignorant ancestors' beliefs about God in the OT.How are you going to explain that you taught people to worship a God that is not remotely like the one Jesus revealed as His Father? I witness to the God Jesus said we would see when we looked at HIM. So if the God you are telling people to worship is not exactly like Jesus . . . I think you need to rethink your concept of God.
The God of the OT is exactly the same God as the God of the NT. He is Holy, Righteous, Wrathful, and Loving all at the same time.
If you don't bear witness to the fact that we will be judged by God for our sin, then you are bearing witness to an idol created in your own imagination.
Last edited by Vizio; 06-19-2013 at 03:22 PM..
Reason: to fix a typo
There are numerous false gods that don't exist that religions point to.
You are saying that being incorrect in what we believe ABOUT the only God that exists negates our belief in the only God that exists??Are you certain that is the way God would see it? Jealousy is a human weakness and it also requires the existence of something to be jealous of. Our Father is incapable of human weaknesses . . . so being jealous is not an option. Only our ignorant ancient ancestors believed that about God in the schoolmaster stage of their belief.The fact that there does not exist anything to BE jealous of just makes your concerns doubly silly.
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The God of the OT is exactly the same God as the Got of the NT. He is Holy, Righteous, Wrathful, and Loving all at the same time.
I said nothing about God being a different God . . . just that our ignorant ancient ancestors were WRONG about Him, period. He was NEVER what they thought and Christ made that unambiguously clear by not smiting anyone and forgiving everyone despite horrendous provocation.
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If you don't bear witness to the fact that we will be judged by God for our sin, then you are bearing witness to an idol created in your own imagination.
No one who believes as I do claims we will not be "judged." We just differ about what that means. You see it as an eternal torment as punishment (for whatever) . . . we believe we will just reap what we sow.
I don't know what you believe in regards to Christ. If you believe that you are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, by grace alone, then you are a Christian. I'm not saying anything to tell you to go against that.
If instead you believe that you are saved at baptism and then must maintain your salvation through doing good things, then you are in the same boat as anyone else.
I don't know what your beliefs are, exactly.
And are you in the same boat when you oppose what God taught about baptism:
[1] The making of disciples,
Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and makedisciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
[2] Baptism saves
1 Peter 3:21
and this water (the flood of Noah's day) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
[3] Paul draws a parallel between Old Testament circumcision and Baptism (Colossians 2:11-12).
Babies in the Old Testament were to be circumcised on the eighth day after birth.l
[4] Baptism:
Baptism unites us with Jesus in his death and resurrection (1 Peter 3:21, etc.).
It washes away our sins and brings us the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it gives us a new birth into a glorious new life with God (Titus 3:5-6).
It both empowers and symbolizes the daily repentance that characterizes the whole life of a Christian (Romans 6:1-7).
the Holy Spirit works to create or strengthen faith and brings the gifts of forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation (Titus 3:4-7, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38-39).
[5] Good works are the reflection of faith "fruit of" , not the maintenance of it.
However, a good tree will produce fruit. Therefore a tree that has bad fruit or no fruit at all is not a faith that God desires.
[6] Jesus specifically taught and warned about not remaining in the faith:
John 15:4-6 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
A Christian is always a Christian. I think you need to ask how does one truly become a Christian for once you have understood that and acted upon the requirement to become a Christian you will always be a Christian.
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV)
One cannot be a CHRISTian ... apart from CHRIST, regardless of what church one attends (It's a contradiction ... like saying one can be an American without ever being in America) -- Simply believing there is one God is not enough -- As James points out, "Even the demons know there is one God and tremble."
Likewise, true believers do not belong to any one denomination. The true church of Christ on earth includes ... Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and any other individuals who believe/trust/depend on Christ.
I posted this thread originally in 8/2008 I spent about 3 years as an active member of this forum. I have popped in now and again just to ask a question. Recently, I have tried to 'enjoy' myself here again. I am finding it very difficult, so instead, I have gone back and read some old threads. In all of it, old and new, I find that the below still mystifies me. I was hoping that I could get some fresh thoughts on it. Here is the original thread: //www.city-data.com/forum/relig...p-nothing.html, in case someone wants to go back and read it. It was in a time before the forums were divided. I'm not sure that I like all of the changes. Thank you in advance for taking the time to read. Mods: I hope it was OK that I handled this in this manner. I really didn't think that bumping the old thread would have the same impact. I felt I need to explain.
I have given thought to this question for many years. Years before I ever even knew of a place called City-data. But it is something that I have always been curious about. And being here on City-data, my question and concern has only grown deeper.
There are so many different religions. So many different Christian sects. And of course, no one can be correct. Because if it is correct, where does it leave the others?
My question, or at least the first one, is, if a person is being led to Christ...if a person's heart is truly seeking God, then does it matter what faith it is that is leading the person down the road? Let's say that they are following a money hungry televangelist. They have given practically every thing that they have to this church, but they have found God. Is it not your God? Is it not my God? Sure, the televangelist will have some explaining to do the day that he stands before God. But what about the flock that he has led to God? Is it truly our job to beat at their doors and tell them that their way is not the right way? And, truly, who are we to say? Unless you have recently stood before a burning bush, who are you to tell ANYONE that they are wrong?
I have become so frustrated with the faith-bashing that I read in these threads. It is truly un-Christ-like.
Secondly, if it is our job to 'convert' these poor lost sheep, to what ends will we go? Shall we completely beat their spirit down and make them see the error of their ways? What if in our attempt to bring them to our faith--to OUR GOD--they lose their faith entirely? What then? How will we explain this to God on our day of judgement? I'm trying to imagine the words, "Well, yes, Father, I understand that they were searching for you, but they were doing it all wrong." Yes, I think that He will understand...
It makes me truly sad when I see some of the words that are written between the lines of these threads. It makes me truly sad....
weather...
I think I'm right there with you weather. I've just recently wandered back after taking a prolong hiatus from the Religion and the Christianity forums here. I imagine that the non-Christians must think that we're a ridiculous lot. It must seem like a clown car filled with squabbling children. We're so busy damning each other to hell for trivial nonsense to realize that we're supposed to be working together for the greater good. With all of the bickering and disunity, Christianity as a whole seems to lack a simple and coherent message for the rest of the world.
Likewise, true believers do not belong to any one denomination. The true church of Christ on earth includes ... Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and any other individuals who believe/trust/depend on Christ.
Right on. We have no biblical definition of the word "Christian." The closest thing we have is a statement by Jesus Christ himself concerning how men would be able to recognize His disciples -- and that was by the love they showed towards one another. Based on that statement, we're in pretty sad shape as a group of professing Christians.
Last edited by Katzpur; 06-19-2013 at 03:59 PM..
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