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I believe in the word of God, it is true and a save path in the walk with our Lord. Therefore every dream, vision and experience has to be filtered by the bible. Mike is right, Jesus is the way, Howard Storm is wrong, there are not other ways. His experience does not proof, there is no hell, because he was not in hell. When the demons would have succeeded to drag him into hell, he would be lost. If humans would strife and resist the devil in their life as Harold did and call on the name of the Lord, no one had to go to hell. Harold was not taken to paradise, the third heaven, he did not want to go there, because God is a consuming fire. It seems that he was in the second heaven, which is mostly the domain of the devil. The beings he met (Christians) I do not know, who they are.
In the other testimony Jesus guided him through several realms of the afterlife. But the first heaven, where he saw the "spirits of people", which were IMO demons, that may left him, and were now struggling to go into other bodies, this realm is not hell, which is in the midst of the earth. There is a realm that is called Sheol or Hades, where the souls go that rest (sleep) there till the second resurrection (not second coming) and which are judged according to their works, and if one is not written in the book of life, he goes into the lake of fire.
The poster of this thread says, that there is no death certificate from the witnesses that went to hell, that is wrong. Daniel Ekechukwu, a pastor from Nigeria has one from a doctor of a hospital. He was 3 days in a mortuary, before he was resurrected to life again. He is a witness of Heaven and Hell, but if someone does not believe the scriptures, he will also not believe, if someone comes back from the dead.
I'm familiar with the pastor's story, zur. He was sent to hell because he'd had an argument with his wife earlier and drove off in a state of anger. Now I ask you, zur, in all intelligence and honesty, come on: do you really believe God would send someone to hell to burn in the most horrible painful agony for all eternity merely because he drove off a little pissed off after having a little tiff with his wife? There's not a married Christian couple on this earth that hasn't left in a huff over an argument with their spouse. Really. This kind of reasoning goes beyond the pale of rationality and into the realm of bizarre cultism.
And yet this is exactly the kind of propaganda the Fundamentalist brigade squad is trying to ram down the throats of dumbed-down gullible Christians for no other reason than an concerted effort to exercise mind control over a Christian populace too lazy to crack a Bible and search out the true meaning of scripture for themselves. These Fundamentalist mind-control freaks are so terrified that once the Christian populace becomes educated and learns the truth about God's extended mercy to ALL people they'll lose all influence over them and along with that the ability to extracts large amounts of cash to keep them ensconced in positions of power, privilege and wealth. It's no more complicated than that.
For you parents out there who love your children: do you believe your love is greater than God's love for you? Would you keep your child in a basement and torture him/her for the rest of their lives merely because they spilled a glass of milk? Then how can you expect God would do that to you merely because you hadn't been lucky enough to be preordained to be one of God's special elect?
Horward Storm is only one among millions of atheists/agnostics who have had a glimpse of eternity and not a single one has been shown a fiery hell.
Interestingly, the ONLY ones taken to hell were Christian fundamentalists. Perhaps the measure they were using to judge others they felt unworthy of heaven was measured to them. Matthew 7:2
I'm familiar with the pastor's story, zur. He was sent to hell because he'd had an argument with his wife earlier and drove off in a state of anger. Now I ask you, zur, in all intelligence and honesty, come on: do you really believe God would send someone to hell to burn in the most horrible painful agony for all eternity merely because he drove off a little pissed off after having a little tiff with his wife? There's not a married Christian couple on this earth that hasn't left in a huff over an argument with their spouse. Really. This kind of reasoning goes beyond the pale of rationality and into the realm of bizarre cultism.
And yet this is exactly the kind of propaganda the Fundamentalist brigade squad is trying to ram down the throats of dumbed-down gullible Christians for no other reason than an concerted effort to exercise mind control over a Christian populace too lazy to crack a Bible and search out the true meaning of scripture for themselves. These Fundamentalist mind-control freaks are so terrified that once the Christian populace becomes educated and learns the truth about God's extended mercy to ALL people they'll lose all influence over them and along with that the ability to extracts large amounts of cash to keep them ensconced in positions of power, privilege and wealth. It's no more complicated than that.
For you parents out there who love your children: do you believe your love is greater than God's love for you? Would you keep your child in a basement and torture him/her for the rest of their lives merely because they spilled a glass of milk? Then how can you expect God would do that to you merely because you hadn't been lucky enough to be preordained to be one of God's special elect?
Horward Storm is only one among millions of atheists/agnostics who have had a glimpse of eternity and not a single one has been shown a fiery hell.
Interestingly, the ONLY ones taken to hell were Christian fundamentalists. Perhaps the measure they were using to judge others they felt unworthy of heaven was measured to them. Matthew 7:2
Howard Storm was an atheist at the time of his near death experience which took place in a hospital setting which meets your criteria for establishing the legitimacy of a near death experience claim, and at the same time proves your claim that only fundamentalists experience hell to be wrong. In fact, no believer in Jesus Christ will ever go to 'hell'. The lake of fire will be the eternal abode only of those who die without accepting Christ as Savior, and of the fallen angels. And following in the next paragraph is what Howard Stern claims happened to him in hell. I do not by the way believe his claim. But here is a claim of a near death experience by a man who was an atheist at the time, and in a clinical setting, which refutes your claim.
Excerpt:
'By this time it was almost complete darkness, and I had the sense that instead of there being twenty or thirty, there were an innumerable host of them. Each one seemed set on coming in for the sport they got from hurting me. My attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment. They began to physically humiliate me in the most degrading ways. As I continued to fight on and on, I was aware that they weren't in any hurry to win. They were playing with me just as a cat plays with a mouse. Every new assault brought howls of cacophony. Then at some point, they began to tear off pieces of my flesh. To my horror I realized I was being taken apart and eaten alive, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long a possible.' An invitation to hell from strange beings
Your agenda is clear and you do not fool anyone. Recently you've been on a rant about fundamentalists, making wild and insulting claims about them as you do above. You do not believe the Bible which is the Word of God and therefore you do not believe God. You promote Universalism which is contrary to what the Word of God teaches, and is contrary to what mainstream Christianity believed in the 1st and 2nd centuries as I have shown in Post #7 of the following thread >> //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ints-view.html
Howard Storm was an atheist at the time of his near death experience which took place in a hospital setting which meets your criteria for establishing the legitimacy of a near death experience claim, and at the same time proves your claim that only fundamentalists experience hell to be wrong. In fact, no believer in Jesus Christ will ever go to 'hell'. The lake of fire will be the eternal abode only of those who die without accepting Christ as Savior, and of the fallen angels. And following in the next paragraph is what Howard Stern claims happened to him in hell. I do not by the way believe his claim. But here is a claim of a near death experience by a man who was an atheist at the time, and in a clinical setting, which refutes your claim.
Excerpt:
'By this time it was almost complete darkness, and I had the sense that instead of there being twenty or thirty, there were an innumerable host of them. Each one seemed set on coming in for the sport they got from hurting me. My attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment. They began to physically humiliate me in the most degrading ways. As I continued to fight on and on, I was aware that they weren't in any hurry to win. They were playing with me just as a cat plays with a mouse. Every new assault brought howls of cacophony. Then at some point, they began to tear off pieces of my flesh. To my horror I realized I was being taken apart and eaten alive, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long a possible.' An invitation to hell from strange beings
Your agenda is clear and you do not fool anyone. Recently you've been on a rant about fundamentalists, making wild and insulting claims about them as you do above. You do not believe the Bible which is the Word of God and therefore you do not believe God. You promote Universalism which is contrary to what the Word of God teaches, and is contrary to what mainstream Christianity believed in the 1st and 2nd centuries as I have shown in Post #7 of the following thread >> //www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ints-view.html
What in the heck are you ranting about, Mike? The bold is about a person you represent as being different from Howard Storm and in fact the person who is the subject of the link you provided IS Howard Storm!!
And in his description he says he was accosted by malevolent beings of a "hellish" nature but never once does he state or even insinuate that he was taken to hell and thrown into fiery torment and writhing in the flames of hell and being poked by demons or the devil the way crackpots like Baxter and Weiss do.
As for the rest of your rant I stand by every word I said. Eternal torment is a sick doctrine. Fundamentalists have taken the Bible and twisted it around into a doctrine of fear and loathing for no other purpose than to scare the bejeezus out of people in order to make them obedient to the Party line.
Quote:
Jonathan Edwards
“The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven.”
The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. . .Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell. . . I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it[suffering people in hell] will increase rather than diminish his bliss.
Quote:
Thomas Boston, Scottish preacher, 1732
"God shall not pity them but laugh at their calamity. The righteous company in heaven shall rejoice in the execution of God's judgment, and shall sing while the smoke riseth up for ever."
What in the heck are you ranting about, Mike? The bold is about a person you represent as being different from Howard Storm and in fact the person who is the subject of the link you provided IS Howard Storm!!
And in his description he says he was accosted by malevolent beings of a "hellish" nature but never once does he state or even insinuate that he was taken to hell and thrown into fiery torment and writhing in the flames of hell and being poked by demons or the devil the way crackpots like Baxter and Weiss do.
As for the rest of your rant I stand by every word I said. Eternal torment is a sick doctrine. Fundamentalists have taken the Bible and twisted it around into a doctrine of fear and loathing for no other purpose than to scare the bejeezus out of people in order to make them obedient to the Party line.
First, I am not the one ranting. That is what you have been doing.
Second, you need to read more carefully. I stated that this is about Howard Storm's near death experience claim. I did not represent the quoted claim as being someone else.
Third, the Bible never says anything about being poked by demons or by Satan. Satan and the fallen angels are not even in hell at this time. They are operational upon the earth. To compare what the Bible says with the claims made by the people you mentioned is foolish.
Fourth, the Bible plainly teaches that those who die without receiving Christ as Savior will be eternally separated from God in the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41,46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; Revelation 20:11-15).
Fifth, you are making unwarranted and blanket accusations about the motives of fundamentalists.
Sixth, once again, Howard Storm's near death experience took place under clinical conditions while he was an atheist. What he claimed happened was that he was being taken to a dark place and that his flesh was being torn off his body and that he was being eaten alive by those who were taking him there. This again refutes your claim that there are no authentic claims under clinical conditions about near death experiences of hell.
And again, I do not believe Howard Storm's claim anymore than I believe the claims of anyone else's near death experience.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-07-2013 at 02:49 PM..
I dunno. I can't get through to Mike, nor, as usual, can he get through to me. Anybody out there care to dissect where we are at impasses?
What I think IS significant about Storm's testimony is that even though he was an atheist having a "hellish" event of some sort, the moment God instructed him to call on His name Storm was lifted out of this condition and taken into the presence of God. So an atheist had what I would term, not a hellish, but a nightmarish experience. And many atheists claim that at first they were in darkness of some sort. But what is also significant about all these atheists is that most were taken immediately into the presence of God upon calling on His name.
Powerful testimony from former atheist, now Christian Ian McCormack who "died" in a hospital from jellyfish stings and was saved. He says he went into a "hellish" environment---no flames, no devil, like nutjob Bill Weiss, a Fundamentalist Christian claims---but upon calling on the name of God, exactly like Howard Storm and thousands of others, McCormack was immediately taken out of this darkness and into the presence of God.
I believe we are all spiritual beings. I think we probably all have a similar "spiritual center" to our being, which is shown by similar dream symbolism across cultures, and other things.
I think some people discover their spiritual self more than others. Some of those who discover it put a name on it ("Jesus" or whatever), and some don't.
I think those people who follow step-by-step instructions given by them to someone else, along with threats, have little chance of finding the spiritual center of themselves, since a list of instructions falls so short of a spiritual belief. They are pushed into that with as much force as possible, and given no chance to find their own truth themselves. (I truly wish that long ago, in my adolescent years, I had had a chance to read some of the bible without having been told what it was supposed to mean, as my parents would have encouraged.)
The big rift here, I think, is between those who have been instructed, with intimidation, and those who have found their own spirituality. The ones who have found their own can relate to each other somewhat, even with some differences, without having to prove that every detail and every word, and every word's meaning, must match. Otherwise this major disconnect happens.
The big rift here, I think, is between those who have been instructed, with intimidation, and those who have found their own spirituality. The ones who have found their own can relate to each other somewhat, even with some differences, without having to prove that every detail and every word, and every word's meaning, must match. Otherwise this major disconnect happens.
YOU LOSE! I can't "rep" you. Too soon. Gosh, If I had known I would not have "repped" you earlier or any of the other times I tried.. THIS one is a classic.
YOU LOSE! I can't "rep" you. Too soon. Gosh, If I had known I would not have "repped" you earlier or any of the other times I tried.. THIS one is a classic.
Moderator cut: deleted as insulting
Those who have the worst experiences are most often Christian Fundamentalists and this is not by accident. People taken to the "other side" report most often that it is the people themselves who make their own hells. Thus, a person who has been programmed and indoctrinated to believe they are in danger of the flames of hell in some way very often actually experience the hell they have created for themself. On the other hand, people of other cultures who don't even know what the concept of hell is, naturally experience nothing like it upon passing to the other side.
This would explain why it is that people like Mary K Baxter and Bill Weiss go to hell, while non-practicing Christians like George Ritchie, Pam Reynolds and Betty Eadie have heavenly encounters.
It's easy for Fundamentalists to say everyone else is going to hell but they aren't. As I have often stated I have never met a Fundamentalist yet who believes in eternal damnation who didn't believe they themselves were headed for the pearly gates. But it's really difficult convincing these people that there is something drastically wrong when they say, "There's nothing wrong with me, it's the other 10 million non-Christians reporting these heavenly experiences who are sick."
Those who have the worst experiences are most often Christian Fundamentalists and this is not by accident. People taken to the "other side" report most often that it is the people themselves who make their own hells. Thus, a person who has been programmed and indoctrinated to believe they are in danger of the flames of hell in some way very often actually experience the hell they have created for themself. On the other hand, people of other cultures who don't even know what the concept of hell is, naturally experience nothing like it upon passing to the other side.
This would explain why it is that people like Mary K Baxter and Bill Weiss go to hell, while non-practicing Christians like George Ritchie, Pam Reynolds and Betty Eadie have heavenly encounters.
It's easy for Fundamentalists to say everyone else is going to hell but they aren't. As I have often stated I have never met a Fundamentalist yet who believes in eternal damnation who didn't believe they themselves were headed for the pearly gates. But it's really difficult convincing these people that there is something drastically wrong when they say, "There's nothing wrong with me, it's the other 10 million non-Christians reporting these heavenly experiences who are sick."
Why don't you try comprehending what I am saying? Howard Storm claims he had a near death experience and he wrote a book about it. Now before he describes his heavenly experience he first describes his descent toward hell. Here is Howard Storm's description of his encounter with the beings who he says were taking him to hell.
By this time it was almost complete darkness, and I had the sense that instead of there being twenty or thirty, there were an innumerable host of them. Each one seemed set on coming in for the sport they got from hurting me. My attempts to fight back only provoked greater merriment. They began to physically humiliate me in the most degrading ways. As I continued to fight on and on, I was aware that they weren't in any hurry to win. They were playing with me just as a cat plays with a mouse. Every new assault brought howls of cacophony. Then at some point, they began to tear off pieces of my flesh. To my horror I realized I was being taken apart and eaten alive, slowly, so that their entertainment would last as long a possible.[Bolded mine] An invitation to hell from strange beings
Now if you believe Howard Storm's account of his 'heavenly' experience, then logically you must also believe his account of his 'hellish' experience.
Now you Thrillobyte have expressed revulsion at your perception of hell. You mentioned fire and being poked by pitchfork carrying demons.
But you seem to be okay with Howard Storm's account of having his flesh torn off by beings who then ate his flesh.
Do you, Thrillobyte believe Howard Storm's claim that hellish beings were tearing his flesh from his body and eating him alive before being rescued?
Are you, Thrillobyte saying that geting poked by pitchfork carrying demons [your perception] is bad, but getting torn apart and eaten alive by hellish beings [Howard Storm's claim], is not so bad?
But if Howard Storm's account of his encounter with beings who ate his flesh after tearing it from his body is not accurate or true, then why would you believe his account of his alleged experience with heaveny beings?
You keep making accusations about 'fundamentalists' while ignoring the fact that Jesus said,
Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on His left, ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...46] ''These will go away into eternal punishment... [At the judgment of the nations]
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. [Jesus' revelation to John concerning the great white throne judgment]
The only determining factor in where you will spend the eternal future, in the presence of God, or eternally separated from God, is whether you place your faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life.
You believe peoples testimonies about their 'NDE' experiences if you wish, but I will trust what the Word of God says about the matter.
Personally, I agree with Mike. What was it you said that turned his experience around?
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There's not a married Christian couple on this earth that hasn't left in a huff over an argument with their spouse. Really. This kind of reasoning goes beyond the pale of rationality and into the realm of bizarre cultism.
