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For curiosity's sake only---for those who might be interested as I was.
Howard Storm, an atheist had an NDE---it is one of the most famous ever recorded--and became a Christian minister afterward, so profound was his experience. Interviews with him are available by the scores on Youtube but here's what interested me about it (from a large excerpt from his book, "Saved From Hell"
Storm makes it clear he had a physical body during this experience and could shed physical tears.
Quote:
Something that disturbed me was that I was naked. Somewhere in the darkness I'd lost my hospital gown. I was a human being. I had a body. They told me this was okay. They were quite familiar with my anatomy. Gradually I relaxed and stopped trying to cover my privates with my hands.
This I find most fascinating of all. He was aware that he had kept his genitals and was embarrassed.
Quote:
I knew that they [the Beings that met him] loved me and knew everything about me. I knew that everything was going to be okay from now on. I asked if I could get rid of my body, which was definitely a hindrance, and become a being like them with the powers they had shown me. They said: "No, you have to go back." I tried to argue with them, and I observed that if I bear that thought – the thought that I might wind up in the pit again – I pled with them to stay. My friends then said: "Do you think that we expect you to be perfect, after all the love we feel for you, even after you were on earth blaspheming God, and treating everyone around you like dirt? And this, despite the fact that we were sending people to try and help you, to teach you the truth? Do you really think we would be apart from you now?"
Storm, an avowed atheist, was met by Beings sent from God (who he was incapable of approaching because of his spiritual condition) who expressed nothing but profound love for him and who told him he had to return to be a better person.
You really have to read the extended excerpt. It is quite astonishing, and totally unlike the hash Fundamentalists try to pass off about sinners landing in hell writhing in fire for all eternity (something that not one person out of the millions of people who have had authentic, veridical NDE's says happened to them).
For curiosity's sake only---for those who might be interested as I was.
Howard Storm, an atheist had an NDE---it is one of the most famous ever recorded--and became a Christian minister afterward, so profound was his experience. Interviews with him are available by the scores on Youtube but here's what interested me about it (from a large excerpt from his book, "Saved From Hell"
Storm makes it clear he had a physical body during this experience and could shed physical tears.
This I find most fascinating of all. He was aware that he had kept his genitals and was embarrassed.
Storm, an avowed atheist, was met by Beings sent from God (who he was incapable of approaching because of his spiritual condition) who expressed nothing but profound love for him and who told him he had to return to be a better person.
You really have to read the extended excerpt. It is quite astonishing, and totally unlike the hash Fundamentalists try to pass off about sinners landing in hell writhing in fire for all eternity (something that not one person out of the millions of people who have had authentic, veridical NDE's says happened to them).
Exactly why should we believe a word that Storm says?
Exactly why should we believe a word that Storm says?
Obviously because he was an avowed atheist before the NDE. Now why on earth, for logic's sake, would an atheist write an account about meeting God and then become a Christian minister unless it really happened?
Obviously because he was an avowed atheist before the NDE. Now why on earth, for logic's sake, would an atheist write an account about meeting God and then become a Christian minister unless it really happened?
Yeah, but in Vizio's defense - if it's not in the bible, how the heck can it possibly be true?
Obviously because he was an avowed atheist before the NDE. Now why on earth, for logic's sake, would an atheist write an account about meeting God and then become a Christian minister unless it really happened?
How do I know he saw God? Because he says so? And had a significant life change?
I believe in a lot of truth that isn't in the Bible. I love nature and science. I enjoy learning about our world.
I'm just curious why we'd choose to believe the word of 1 man over the Bible.
I'm going to be candid with you, Vizio.
Dimes to donuts you didn't even bother reading the link, just dove in and started asking, "Why should we believe?"
Now I can keep this conversation going by engaging you and you would rebut me and I would rebut you and so on and so forth, and while all this was going on lurkers with more open minds would be reading the thread because it stays at the top and check out the link and start believing that maybe this guy Storm has something interesting and worthwhile to say. You, in effect, are aiding me in getting the message out that the Bible's profoundly misinterpreted message that people burn for eternity gets shown for what it really is ---church propaganda.
So I'll play my part and answer your question: why should we choose to believe the word of 1 man over the Bible.
Well, because he was there?
Quote:
They assured me that mistakes are an acceptable part of being human. "Go," they said, "and make all the mistakes you want. Mistakes are how you learn." As long as I tried to do what I knew was right, they said, I would be on the right path. If I made a mistake, I should fully recognize it as a mistake, then put it behind me and simply try not to make the same mistake again. The important things is to try one's best, keep one's standards of goodness and truth, and not compromise those to win people's approval. "But," I said, "mistakes make me feel bad." They said, "We love you the way you are, mistakes and all. And you can feel our forgiveness. You can feel our love any time you want to." I said, "I don't understand. How do I do that?" "Just turn inward," they said. "Just ask for our love and we'll give it to you if you ask from the heart."
They advised me to recognize it when I made a mistake and to ask for forgiveness. Before I even got the words out of my mouth, I would be forgiven – but, I would have to accept the forgiveness. My belief in the principal of forgiveness must be real, and I would have to know that the forgiveness was given. Confessing, either in public or in private, that I had made a mistake, I should then ask for forgiveness. After that, it would be an insult to them if I didn’t accept the forgiveness. I shouldn’t continue to go around with a sense of guilt, and I should not repeat errors – I should learn from my mistakes.
"But," I said, "how will I know what is the right choice? How will I know what you want me to do?" They replied: "We want you to do what you want to do. That means making choices – and there isn’t necessarily any right choice. There are a spectrum of possibilities, and you should make the best choice you can from those possibilities. If you do that, we will be there helping you."
Bottom line, we are not condemned for sinning. Just ask for forgiveness. And try to learn from your mistakes so you don't make them anymore.
For curiosity's sake only---for those who might be interested as I was.
Howard Storm, an atheist had an NDE---it is one of the most famous ever recorded--and became a Christian minister afterward, so profound was his experience. Interviews with him are available by the scores on Youtube but here's what interested me about it (from a large excerpt from his book, "Saved From Hell"
Storm makes it clear he had a physical body during this experience and could shed physical tears.
This I find most fascinating of all. He was aware that he had kept his genitals and was embarrassed.
Storm, an avowed atheist, was met by Beings sent from God (who he was incapable of approaching because of his spiritual condition) who expressed nothing but profound love for him and who told him he had to return to be a better person.
You really have to read the extended excerpt. It is quite astonishing, and totally unlike the hash Fundamentalists try to pass off about sinners landing in hell writhing in fire for all eternity (something that not one person out of the millions of people who have had authentic, veridical NDE's says happened to them).
He claims... 'I asked them, for example, which was the best religion. I was looking for an answer which was like: "Presbyterians." I figured these guys were all Christians. The answer I got was: "The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God." '
WRONG!!!!! Jesus said,
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
You claim... ''and totally unlike the hash Fundamentalists try to pass off about sinners landing in hell writhing in fire for all eternity (something that not one person out of the millions of people who have had authentic, veridical NDE's says happened to them).''
Claims of NDE'S Of Hell
Mary K Baxter Divine Revelation of Hell
'From the pit a woman’s voice spoke to Jesus. She stood in the center of the flames, and they covered her whole body. Her bones were full of worms and dead flesh. As the flames flickered up around her, she raised her hands towards Jesus, crying, “let me out of here. I will give You [...]'
'Angelica Zambrano was shown the Kingdoms of Heaven and Hell, and the Return of Christ this is her video testimony translated in English She saw Michael Jackson in hell, she saw Selena Quintanilla Perez in hell, and Pope John Paul II in hell. For a period of 23 hours, a young Ecuadorian girl named Angelica [...]'
He claims... 'I asked them, for example, which was the best religion. I was looking for an answer which was like: "Presbyterians." I figured these guys were all Christians. The answer I got was: "The best religion is the religion that brings you closest to God." '
WRONG!!!!! Jesus said,
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
You claim... ''and totally unlike the hash Fundamentalists try to pass off about sinners landing in hell writhing in fire for all eternity (something that not one person out of the millions of people who have had authentic, veridical NDE's says happened to them).''
Claims of NDE'S Of Hell
Mary K Baxter Divine Revelation of Hell
'From the pit a woman’s voice spoke to Jesus. She stood in the center of the flames, and they covered her whole body. Her bones were full of worms and dead flesh. As the flames flickered up around her, she raised her hands towards Jesus, crying, “let me out of here. I will give You [...]'
'Angelica Zambrano was shown the Kingdoms of Heaven and Hell, and the Return of Christ this is her video testimony translated in English She saw Michael Jackson in hell, she saw Selena Quintanilla Perez in hell, and Pope John Paul II in hell. For a period of 23 hours, a young Ecuadorian girl named Angelica [...]'
None of the people you've named had an NDE in a hospital setting in which qualified licensed medical personnel like Dr's nurses, technicians etc will swear under oath that EKG's, EEG's, and other sophisticated equipment used to determine presence of absence of live showed beyond doubt the individuals were clinically dead by legal definitions.
Not a single one.
Mary K Baxter? hah! Queen of the Fundamentalist lunatic fringe. Has a whole cottage industry of books, tapes, DVD's, workbooks outlining a ten-step program on how to stay out of hell---all based upon her claims that she left her body and returned 30 times or something every night for a month in her home. Naturally, there wasn't a single person present to corroborate her claims so we have to take her word for all this but that shouldn't be difficult for people with IQ's of 20 or less (and believe me this country is full of 'em, that's why all her materials sell so well.).
Want to make a million bucks like she did? Sit down at your computer and crank out a 200 page 1st-grade level pile of hash about having been taken by Jesus to hell and shown how everyone is burning up in little cages with their eyeballs rolling out of their sockets, begging Jesus for forgiveness as He nonchalantly walks by with His thumb turned down.
I guarantee you 1000% it will be a best seller. If it isn't send me the bill.
Speaking of bill, Bill Weiss took an excellent lesson from Mary Baxter with his "23 Minutes in Hell". Made him a multi-millionaire just like Baxter. But you'll have to ask Jesus to leave you there just 22 minutes cause 23 minutes has already been used by Mr. Weiss.
I could go on but you get the idea, I hope.
I WILL read the story about the Mormon though. Sounds interesting.
Dimes to donuts you didn't even bother reading the link, just dove in and started asking, "Why should we believe?"
Now I can keep this conversation going by engaging you and you would rebut me and I would rebut you and so on and so forth, and while all this was going on lurkers with more open minds would be reading the thread because it stays at the top and check out the link and start believing that maybe this guy Storm has something interesting and worthwhile to say. You, in effect, are aiding me in getting the message out that the Bible's profoundly misinterpreted message that people burn for eternity gets shown for what it really is ---church propaganda.
So I'll play my part and answer your question: why should we choose to believe the word of 1 man over the Bible.
Well, because he was there?
How do I know that? Anyone can make that claim. Ever bought a used car? People sometimes lie to make you believe them.
Quote:
Bottom line, we are not condemned for sinning. Just ask for forgiveness. And try to learn from your mistakes so you don't make them anymore.
That sounds pretty Christian, doesn't it?
No. It really doesn't. Christianity doesn't teach that there no consequences for sin. It teaches that God became flesh, lived among us, then died on a cross to pay the penalty for our sin. It was a big consequence.
If this guy is saying that we are forgiven and we just need to "try harder" then he's teaching a false Gospel--and should not be believed.
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