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Jesus didn't save us to have us sitting around uselessly. We were saved for a purpose: to build the Kingdom.
Our Faith is more than just lip-service, just as worship of God is more than just emotional words and songs: it is a life of worship, with every action to be done for the glory of God. Can we live up to that calling? Not on our own strength, but we were not left alone.
Paul did not tell us to give up the struggle,
but to give it OVER to God.
Not by our power, but by His. And overcoming sin is not an allegorical statement.
You cannot repent without a turning from sin in obedience to God
A change of heart is automatic from the Holy Spirit, which results in a change of behavior (it is not a huge effort on our part if we submit to the Spirit)
Even the thief on the cross bore good fruit before he died by defending Jesus
Now I am not saying that I know how God will judge EVERY single person
But He has made it clear that in order to be saved, you must repent and be baptized
Eternal security does not exist for the unrepentant
Nobody is saying people must be sinless in order to have salvation, but if you are making a habit of sinning willfully and without an attitude of repentance...... Or worse, telling others they can.......good luck
That's what the judgment seat of Christ is for.
Some may be a little crispy upon entering the kingdom. One thing I know for sure - if they have the Holy Spirit, they will be there.
And yet, unbelievers can have works also. But they are not saved, and their works are not acceptable to God. And the works of a believer who is out of fellowship and walking according to the old sin nature are not acceptable to God either and will simply be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
Quote:
You must repent in order to be born again
You cannot repent without a turning from sin in obedience to God
Once again, repentance with regard to eternal salvation has nothing to do with repenting of sin. Repentance refers to a change of mind, and in the context of eternal salvation refers to having a change of mind about Christ. When the unbeliever believes in Christ in response to the gospel message he has repented.
Quote:
A change of heart is automatic from the Holy Spirit, which results in a change of behavior (it is not a huge effort on our part if we submit to the Spirit)
Even the thief on the cross bore good fruit before he died by defending Jesus No, a change of heart is not automatic. As I said that is a process from spiritual growth
Now I am not saying that I know how God will judge EVERY single person
But He has made it clear that in order to be saved, you must repent and be baptized
Eternal security does not exist for the unrepentant
Nobody is saying people must be sinless in order to have salvation, but if you are making a habit of sinning willfully and without an attitude of repentance...... Or worse, telling others they can.......good luck
The person who has received Christ as Savior HAS repented. He went from unbelief to belief in Christ. He has changed his mind about Christ. The believer is eternally secure. He cannot lose his salvation.
A change of heart is not automatic and neither is a change of behavior. The apostle Paul made it perfectly clear that believers are capable of continuing in sin even though they shouldn't. In Galatians 5:16-17 he contrasts the believer who walks by the Spirit with the believer who is carrying out the desires of the flesh with reference to the old sin nature. As I have told you, while the believer has a new nature he also retains his old sin nature and he is perfectly capable of giving himself over to the temptations of the old sin nature for extended periods. In 5:19-20 he mentions some of the deeds of the flesh.
Then in 5:25 Paul says, - If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk (or, we should walk) by the Spirit .
'We should walk' - στοιχῶμεν - stoichōmen, is a Present Subjunctive Active 1st person plural. The subjunctive mood is a mood of potentiality or possibility. It may or may not happen. The believer may or may not walk by the Spirit. Paul is urging believers (including himself) to walk by the Spirit but he recognizes the possibility of the believer not walking by the Spirit. And when the believer is not walking by the Spirit he is in a state of carnality and able to sin as long as he remains in carnality. And such was the case with the Corinthians.
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 Paul tells these Corinthians believers who have been believers for some time that he could not speak to them as to spiritual men but as to fleshly men. They are believers but they have been walking like mere men. They have been walking like unbelievers. They are still fleshly because they have been manifesting jealousy and strife (those are sins). These Corinthians have been carnal for an extended period of time.
Believers can behave just like any unbeliever can. With spiritual growth a believer will more often walk by the spirit then according to the old sin nature, but a believer who does not grow spiritually will stay in carnality for extended periods of time, and in fact it is possible for a believer to remain in a state of perpetual carnality. But no one is encouraging or promoting willful sinning.
And no, water baptism is not a requirement for eternal salvation.
And yet, unbelievers can have works also. But they are not saved, and their works are not acceptable to God. And the works of a believer who is out of fellowship and walking according to the old sin nature are not acceptable to God either and will simply be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
Once again, repentance with regard to eternal salvation has nothing to do with repenting of sin. Repentance refers to a change of mind, and in the context of eternal salvation refers to having a change of mind about Christ. When the unbeliever believes in Christ in response to the gospel message he has repented.
The person who has received Christ as Savior HAS repented. He went from unbelief to belief in Christ. He has changed his mind about Christ. The believer is eternally secure. He cannot lose his salvation.
A change of heart is not automatic and neither is a change of behavior. The apostle Paul made it perfectly clear that believers are capable of continuing in sin even though they shouldn't. In Galatians 5:16-17 he contrasts the believer who walks by the Spirit with the believer who is carrying out the desires of the flesh with reference to the old sin nature. As I have told you, while the believer has a new nature he also retains his old sin nature and he is perfectly capable of giving himself over to the temptations of the old sin nature for extended periods. In 5:19-20 he mentions some of the deeds of the flesh.
Then in 5:25 Paul says, - If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk (or, we should walk) by the Spirit .
'We should walk' - στοιχῶμεν - stoichōmen, is a Present Subjunctive Active 1st person plural. The subjunctive mood is a mood of potentiality or possibility. It may or may not happen. The believer may or may not walk by the Spirit. Paul is urging believers (including himself) to walk by the Spirit but he recognizes the possibility of the believer not walking by the Spirit. And when the believer is not walking by the Spirit he is in a state of carnality and able to sin as long as he remains in carnality. And such was the case with the Corinthians.
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 Paul tells these Corinthians believers who have been believers for some time that he could not speak to them as to spiritual men but as to fleshly men. They are believers but they have been walking like mere men. They have been walking like unbelievers. They are still fleshly because they have been manifesting jealousy and strife (those are sins). These Corinthians have been carnal for an extended period of time.
Believers can behave just like any unbeliever can. With spiritual growth a believer will more often walk by the spirit then according to the old sin nature, but a believer who does not grow spiritually will stay in carnality for extended periods of time, and in fact it is possible for a believer to remain in a state of perpetual carnality. But no one is encouraging or promoting willful sinning.
And no, water baptism is not a requirement for eternal salvation.
Mike -
Look at Paul's words in Rom 8:[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
This does not look like Paul is saying that a carnal Christian is walking in the Spirit as a fully repented believer. He is saying that the one who is still carnal must not have received the Spirit of the Holy Ghost. In Acts 5:32 the Apostles said that God gives the Holy Ghost to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 02-26-2015 at 02:48 PM..
And yet, unbelievers can have works also. But they are not saved, and their works are not acceptable to God. And the works of a believer who is out of fellowship and walking according to the old sin nature are not acceptable to God either and will simply be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15.
Once again, repentance with regard to eternal salvation has nothing to do with repenting of sin. Repentance refers to a change of mind, and in the context of eternal salvation refers to having a change of mind about Christ. When the unbeliever believes in Christ in response to the gospel message he has repented.
The person who has received Christ as Savior HAS repented. He went from unbelief to belief in Christ. He has changed his mind about Christ. The believer is eternally secure. He cannot lose his salvation.
A change of heart is not automatic and neither is a change of behavior. The apostle Paul made it perfectly clear that believers are capable of continuing in sin even though they shouldn't. In Galatians 5:16-17 he contrasts the believer who walks by the Spirit with the believer who is carrying out the desires of the flesh with reference to the old sin nature. As I have told you, while the believer has a new nature he also retains his old sin nature and he is perfectly capable of giving himself over to the temptations of the old sin nature for extended periods. In 5:19-20 he mentions some of the deeds of the flesh.
Then in 5:25 Paul says, - If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk (or, we should walk) by the Spirit .
'We should walk' - στοιχῶμεν - stoichōmen, is a Present Subjunctive Active 1st person plural. The subjunctive mood is a mood of potentiality or possibility. It may or may not happen. The believer may or may not walk by the Spirit. Paul is urging believers (including himself) to walk by the Spirit but he recognizes the possibility of the believer not walking by the Spirit. And when the believer is not walking by the Spirit he is in a state of carnality and able to sin as long as he remains in carnality. And such was the case with the Corinthians.
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 Paul tells these Corinthians believers who have been believers for some time that he could not speak to them as to spiritual men but as to fleshly men. They are believers but they have been walking like mere men. They have been walking like unbelievers. They are still fleshly because they have been manifesting jealousy and strife (those are sins). These Corinthians have been carnal for an extended period of time.
Believers can behave just like any unbeliever can. With spiritual growth a believer will more often walk by the spirit then according to the old sin nature, but a believer who does not grow spiritually will stay in carnality for extended periods of time, and in fact it is possible for a believer to remain in a state of perpetual carnality. But no one is encouraging or promoting willful sinning.
And no, water baptism is not a requirement for eternal salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince
Mike -
Look at Paul's words in Rom 8:[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
This does not look like Paul is saying that a carnal Christian is walking in the Spirit as a fully repented believer. He is saying that the one who is still carnal must not have received the Spirit of the Holy Ghost. In Acts 5:32 the Apostles said that God gives the Holy Ghost to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM.
No, of course Paul is not saying that a carnal Christian is walking in the Spirit, and neither did I. They are mutually exclusive states of being. As I said, and as Paul said, a Christian is either walking by the Spirit, or he is walking in the flesh. But he is still a Christian and eternally saved.
The death of which Paul is speaking is not eternal death, but carnal death which is simply a reference to a believer out of fellowship.
The Spirit of God - the Holy Spirit indwells every Church-age believer at the moment of salvation. There were a few exceptions at the beginning of the Church-age. But as you can see from Acts 10:44-48 every Gentile who was listening to Peter and simply believed the gospel received the Holy Spirit even while Peter was still speaking and before they got water baptized. The Holy Spirit indwelt them before they had a chance to obey anything other than the command to believe the gospel. Acts 16:30 - They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
The starting point in Rom. 8:9 is being a believer and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone. After that, at any given point in time the believer will either walk by means of the Spirit or he will walk according to the flesh. Sin puts the believer out of fellowship at which point he is grieving the Holy Spirit. He is carnal at that point, but still eternally saved. When he acknowledges his sin to God as per 1 John 1:9 he is restored to fellowship and filled with the Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is permanent and is not lost when the believer sins. But the filling of the Spirit which is a different ministry of the Spirit is lost with sin and regained when the sin is simply named to God. The believer is never commanded to be indwelt by the Spirit which again is permanent, but he is commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).
No, of course Paul is not saying that a carnal Christian is walking in the Spirit, and neither did I. They are mutually exclusive states of being. As I said, and as Paul said, a Christian is either walking by the Spirit, or he is walking in the flesh. But he is still a Christian and eternally saved.
The death of which Paul is speaking is not eternal death, but carnal death which is simply a reference to a believer out of fellowship.
The Spirit of God - the Holy Spirit indwells every Church-age believer at the moment of salvation. There were a few exceptions at the beginning of the Church-age. But as you can see from Acts 10:44-48 every Gentile who was listening to Peter and simply believed the gospel received the Holy Spirit even while Peter was still speaking and before they got water baptized. The Holy Spirit indwelt them before they had a chance to obey anything other than the command to believe the gospel. Acts 16:30 - They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
The starting point in Rom. 8:9 is being a believer and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith alone in Christ alone. After that, at any given point in time the believer will either walk by means of the Spirit or he will walk according to the flesh. Sin puts the believer out of fellowship at which point he is grieving the Holy Spirit. He is carnal at that point, but still eternally saved. When he acknowledges his sin to God as per 1 John 1:9 he is restored to fellowship and filled with the Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is permanent and is not lost when the believer sins. But the filling of the Spirit which is a different ministry of the Spirit is lost with sin and regained when the sin is simply named to God. The believer is never commanded to be indwelt by the Spirit which again is permanent, but he is commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).
I do not believe the carnal-minded Christain is a true believer since he is walking in the flesh and does not bring forth fruits meet for repentance. I know that God knows the state of his heart, and David says in Psalm 51 that a broken and contrite spirit is the sacrifice that is accepted by the Lord.
No, of course Paul is not saying that a carnal Christian is walking in the Spirit, and neither did I. They are mutually exclusive states of being. As I said, and as Paul said, a Christian is either walking by the Spirit, or he is walking in the flesh. But he is still a Christian and eternally saved.
The death of which Paul is speaking is not eternal death, but carnal death which is simply a reference to a believer out of fellowship.
[/b]
We are both very close to agreeing and yet very far.
I believe in false conversions or falling away from God. I think that may be the biggest difference between us.
This has to do with what Christ said in the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.”
You do not seem to believe in false conversions or falling away from God, but instead would rather tell everyone that they are on good soil . Or that those on rocky soil and thorny soil still live, they just don't get special blessings. Yet, these plants did not live ultimately... They died.
It is not good to convince a plant that it will live when it is dying, this will only ensure its destruction as it becomes complacent and content instead of growing deeper roots and striving for sunlight.
And since they had no root, they withered away.
and the thorns grew up and choked them.
Maybe instead of trying to convince the plants that there is nothing wrong, you should help them by removing the thorns and rocks
I do not believe the carnal-minded Christain is a true believer since he is walking in the flesh and does not bring forth fruits meet for repentance. I know that God knows the state of his heart, and David says in Psalm 51 that a broken and contrite spirit is the sacrifice that is accepted by the Lord.
I have already produced the Scriptures which show the possibility and the reality of the carnal Christian. Since nothing I have said, or might further say will change your opinion, we are just going to have to disagree.
It's been a long time since I've paid much attention to televangelists, but several years ago the Amazing Randi, noted magician and skeptic used to investigate televangelists among his other endeavors. He appeared often on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
His findings were impressive and his books were thorough. Whether he still works, I don't know, but looking him up I see he's in his eighties. He said each and every televangelists he investigated was not what was presented to the public. I can't recall all the indictments, but he said Billy Graham was the only one with not a crumb of dirt to be found. Graham does not have palatial homes in several locations and he does not live a high dollar life. There is no scandal to attach to Graham. I've always been impressed by that.
James Randi may have investigated Osteen. I don't know. Thinking about all this, I've just ordered a book by James Randi. Perhaps Osteen is in it.
It's been a long time since I've paid much attention to televangelists, but several years ago the Amazing Randi, noted magician and skeptic used to investigate televangelists among his other endeavors. He appeared often on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
His findings were impressive and his books were thorough. Whether he still works, I don't know, but looking him up I see he's in his eighties. He said each and every televangelists he investigated was not what was presented to the public. I can't recall all the indictments, but he said Billy Graham was the only one with not a crumb of dirt to be found. Graham does not have palatial homes in several locations and he does not live a high dollar life. There is no scandal to attach to Graham. I've always been impressed by that.
James Randi may have investigated Osteen. I don't know. Thinking about all this, I've just ordered a book by James Randi. Perhaps Osteen is in it.
Unfortunately even Billy Graham has fallen from truth. Now he teaches that the blood of Christ covers all. All religions... Islam, Buddhism etc... He preaches that the love of Christ is wide and so is the road to heaven.
He is really close to the Vatican and the "one world religion"
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